The Great Big Debt Thread

[Ratwhite]

Is this debt thread?

 

How much do we owe?

 

£180m you say!,

 

Fucking Brilliant. We just need a Texan billionaire with a spending disorder and we're reet.

 

I will sleep tonight worrying over this thread though

[radcliffe white]

We struggled to get 10k on for home games last season. Actual people through the doors that is including away fans.

 

Who in their right mind would invest in that?

 

Like I say we have found our natural level. Skint,poorly supported and in a league position to suit.

 

Anything else is punching above our weight and will either take big investment to achieve or somehow we manage to cobble together a sqaud to get us promoted.

 

Other teams have done the latter,as have we albeit in a different era.

well put, we have dined at the top of the table and had good times, now we need to be realistic as things ain't going to get better anytime soon

[Plums]

Let's simplify this, feel free to comment, I'm trying to get a better understanding.

 

Owner doesn't want to put anymore £m in, he stops cash flow.

 

We owe 90% of the oft mentioned £180m to him with the exception of a reasonable bank loan £10m?

 

Owner quite rightly wants to recoup as much as possible of £180m, but within this figure are ownership of stadium, land, training grounds etc. in other words there is equity.

 

The bit I'm struggling with, what potential new owner would take the larger debt on?! Surely Eddie knows this and is willing to take a percentage of the money he has input. ( this isn't necessarily £170m )

How much would a new owner theoretically have to put in? A percentage of that £170?

Eddie is going to take a large loss, surely that's obvious. Unless it's outside factors ( family ? ) then he's going to struggle getting a chunk back?

 

Similar to Jack Walker anyone?

[zurichwhite]

ED will have a figure in mind that he wants from a potential buyer which will be nowhere near 170m. He'll have to write off the balance.

 

The concern is that the wage bill was 30m last year and even if it has come down to 20m, it's still a 10m loss each year. That, plus inheriting the bank loan and losing parachute payments destroy any value that new owners see from player assets, land value etc. 

 

I'm guessing BWFC is worth next to fuck all even if ED writes off his 170m. ED will want some of his money back and we're not an attractive brand for some rich kid's plaything.

[passmosster]

I'm sure that the level of debt and it not being converted to equity is driven either by Eddie Davies' tax considerations and /or legals with the lenders to Moonshift. i.e. they have a charge on the debt. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to have it out there earning no interest.

[tyldesley_white]

I'm sure that the level of debt and it not being converted to equity is driven either by Eddie Davies' tax considerations and /or legals with the lenders to Moonshift. i.e. they have a charge on the debt. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to have it out there earning no interest.

offset debt from one company on the profit from another , so you pay less tax 

Edited August 26, 2015 by tyldesley_white

[Guest]

offset debt from one company on the profit from another , so you pay less tax 

 

 

Is there any tax where Moonshift is based?

[tomski]

The £180m debt, is paper debt not real. To help understand this ED is not worth £180m. If we actually owe him anything, the figure will be a lot less

[Spider]

Genuine question

 

Does anyone on here have to deal with debt management in the hundreds of millions for a living or on a personal level?

 

You see, I don't, so have absolutely no idea whatsoever how such astronomical sums of money operate in the shadowy world of debt & tax loopholes.

 

There's plenty of learned and intelligent souls on here, but I think at best only 1 or 2 who can comment with any authority.

Edited August 26, 2015 by Spider

[SalfordOriginal]

Its surprising that the figure that Eddie is looking for to hand over the reigns has not been leaked given the number of rumors around different consortium's.

I have been expecting since the alleged Orish interest that we would find out what was being asked and why the interest never appears to go past the initial rumors.   

[Mounts Kipper]

Wasn't the bank overdraft paid off with last years parachute payment? Thought all debt was owed only to Eddie.

[BOWTUN BAKED]

Wasn't the bank overdraft paid off with last years parachute payment? Thought all debt was owed only to Eddie.

The bank overdraft was 10M it was paid off with the parachute payment but then starts being used again.

 

Last I saw I think this facility has now been reduced to 5M iirc

[woofy66]

Eddie has made millions in interest on our debt.

[Carlos]

Define "made". Lots of people have lots to say and very little understanding to back it up.

 

Someone has asked if anyone has any genuine understanding, I'm guessing not.

[Sweep]

Eddie has made millions in interest on our debt.

 

so what? - why shouldn't he?

 

If I owned a business and had to lend it some money, I'd want interest back on it

[tyldesley_white]

Eddie has made millions in interest on our debt.

its not our debt its Eddys debt because he owns the club

[birch-chorley]

Eddie has made millions in interest on our debt.

As appose to the bank lending us the money interest free?

 

Anyway its now on 0% with a ten year notice period if it has to be called back so he's earning fuck all

 

If you think he should have put his hard earned money in for nothing with a risk of losing it then put your money where your mouth is and start one of these crowd funding jobs with a good lump of your personal wealth

 

I love the club but I'm certainly not putting my own hard earned at risk giving it to the club to spend on players wages, you crack on though

[Spider]

Eddie has made millions in interest on our debt.

I'm not saying this isn't true, but is there any proof of this anywhere?

[Winchester White]

Eddie has made millions in interest on our debt.

180 million? No? Thought not.

[Guest]

I'm not saying this isn't true, but is there any proof of this anywhere?

 

 

Have you tried the accounts?

[Spider]

Have you tried the accounts?

No because, in the end, I couldn't give enough of a fuck to bother.

 

What bugs me is the amount of people who claim to know what's going on yet plainly don't.

[Guest]

No because, in the end, I couldn't give enough of a fuck to bother.

 

What bugs me is the amount of people who claim to know what's going on yet plainly don't.

 

 

I just turn up every other Saturday hoping for summat

[Eddie]

Eddie has made millions in interest on our debt.

 

Who's money are we using to pay these apparent 'millions' to Eddie Davies?

 

Do you not understand that if we pay Eddie millions in interest, then he just has to give it us back (and more) because we aren't self sustainable. Every year since 2008 the loan to ED has gone up, if he then actually collects the interest that he charged us then all he is doing is increasing the amount of cash that he has to loan us back.

 

For example:

 

Financial CASH shortfall for the year (not the reported loss) is say £10m

Our interest charge for the year on ED's loan is say £3m

We pay ED (Moonshift) that £3m interest then suddenly our cash shortfall is £13m

 

Guess who gives us that £13m as a loan???

 

Seen as there seems to be a lot of people willing to drag ED's name through the mud, when actually he has been nothing short of a saint for us (and because I had a long train journey this morning with access to all the accounts) I decided to have a look through them and finally get a solid answer on just how much cash ED (Moonshift) has put into BWFC.

 

ED took over in 2004 and we turned a profit 04/05/06. The 1st notable cash inflow from him is the sponsorship of the new training ground in 07, he paid us £3.5m which was not part of the loan, it was a cash sum that was not to be paid back.

 

08 - he gave us the 1st loan of £4.5m

09 - Loan increased to £23m however there were 'charges from Moonshift in relation to interest and arrangement fees' of £2m - This means that the actual cash increase from Moonshift, net of their charges to us, was £16.5m

10 - Loan increased to £85m!!! Same charges as above, this time of £4m - Net cash increase in loan was £58m (We paid off the majority of the bank loan and spent £16m on players)

11 - Loan increased to £99m. Charges from Moonshift of £5m - Net cash increase in loan of £9m

12 - Loan increased to £125m. Charges from Moonshift of £5.5m - Net cash increase in loan of £20.5m

13 - Loan increased to £151m. Charges from Moonshift of £7m - Net cash increase in loan of £19m

14 - Loan increased to £174m. Charges from Moonshift of £0.1m - Net cash increase in loan of £22.9m

 

That gives a total cash loan from Moonshift, taking off the 'charges' (which is where the whole interest payment bullshit lies) to us each year, of just over £150m. For that money he now has some assets such as the ground and the training ground, but a lot of it was spent paying for our 10 years of success. How anyone can question what he has done for this club is frightening, I know Gartside has his critics but to to bring ED into it just proves you're a mentalist IMO.

 

A few other things of note whilst I was going through them:

Net cash spend on players 2004-2014 = £60m

Net cash spend on players 2007-2014 = £54m

Net cash spend on players 2013-2014 = £13m (proves that we went shit or bust at bouncing straight back up)

 

Average group turnover 2004-2014 = £52.5m

Average group turnover 2004-2012 = £56m

Average group turnover 2013-2014 = £36.5m

 

Salaries as a % of group turnover from 04 to 09 was always high 40's to high 50's - 2010 then shot up to 79% and stayed up there to 2013 where it reached 93% but then dropped to 68% in 2014.

 

Average gate receipts 2004-2014 = £6.5m

Average gate receipts 2004-2012 = £7.2m

Average gate receipts 2013-2014 = £3.5m

 

Use that as you want, it kept me entertained for a couple of hours and hopefully shuts any twats up that have managed to get it in their head that ED has miraculously made money through his 10 years owning Bolton Wanderers.

[Spider]

Thanks Eddie.

 

It won't change many minds as they've decided that ED is on the take because we aren't pushing for a champions league spot.

 

Anything that means they can have an easy moan over a bit of positivity.

[gonzo]

Superb Eddie.

 

More than a few myths busted there.