Politics

[Salford Trotter]

5 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

Por que

I'll let you work that one out for yourself😉

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

The charade of the last few days by the rag bag of undemocratic opposition Politicians will play out to them passing there bill to stop a ‘ no deal ‘ Brexit

A newly elected Government would not have to honour that bill

However, early next week the Government, on its own, can put forward a vote to end this Parliament and call a GE they will need a majority of ‘one’

The GE will be on October 15th, the public will have a Democratic choice then to vote for Leave with the Conservatives/ TBP or vote Remain with Labour/Lib Dems/etc the winning group will have time to either leave the EU on  October 31st or cancel that and arrange something else, surely this is DEMOCRACY and will unlock the impasse, the country can then move on

How does a first past the post GE resolve this? What if Labour and Lib dems win more votes between them but fewer seats than the Tories - which is quite likely. More people voted for "anti -no deal" parties - but won't get their way. 

The only way is a referendum as that delivers a clear result. 

[Moon boy]

1 minute ago, Salford Trotter said:

I'll let you work that one out for yourself😉

What’s your scenario upto October 31st?

[Escobarp]

Just now, bwfcfan5 said:

How does a first past the post GE resolve this? What if Labour and Lib dems win more votes between them but fewer seats than the Tories - which is quite likely. More people voted for "anti -no deal" parties - but won't get their way. 

The only way is a referendum as that delivers a clear result. 

I repeat as others have 

 

we’ve already had a referendum that delivered a clear result. Just wasn’t the result some wanted so we find ourselves here again. It’s a fact whichever way you wish to try and spin in 

[Moon boy]

1 minute ago, bwfcfan5 said:

How does a first past the post GE resolve this? What if Labour and Lib dems win more votes between them but fewer seats than the Tories - which is quite likely. More people voted for "anti -no deal" parties - but won't get their way. 

The only way is a referendum as that delivers a clear result. 

Ok, so you can win let’s change our Electoral System

’ The Mother of Parliaments’  Y/N

[ZiggyStardust]

2 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

How does a first past the post GE resolve this? What if Labour and Lib dems win more votes between them but fewer seats than the Tories - which is quite likely. More people voted for "anti -no deal" parties - but won't get their way. 

The only way is a referendum as that delivers a clear result. 

If only someone had thought of having a refrendum. We then wouldnot have been in this situation in the first place,

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

I repeat as others have 

 

we’ve already had a referendum that delivered a clear result. Just wasn’t the result some wanted so we find ourselves here again. It’s a fact whichever way you wish to try and spin in 

We've not had a referendum on "no deal" or anything like what is on the table. If you want to disregard parliamentary sovereignty to push towards that then ask the people the question directly. 

Otherwise abide by parliament. 

[Escobarp]

4 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

We've not had a referendum on "no deal" or anything like what is on the table. If you want to disregard parliamentary sovereignty to push towards that then ask the people the question directly. 

Otherwise abide by parliament. 

Im all for another referendum. No deal or leave with a deal. That should be the two choices. 

[Salford Trotter]

8 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

I repeat as others have 

 

we’ve already had a referendum that delivered a clear result. Just wasn’t the result some wanted so we find ourselves here again. It’s a fact whichever way you wish to try and spin in 

And MPs had a chance to accept a poor deal to leave the EU but a deal nonetheless. If we accept the Gvt cannot negotiate a better deal then we should have a 2nd referendum with No Deal and remain as the two options

[Escobarp]

Sorry P I don’t agree  I want to leave but not without a deal so how does that referendum you suggest cater for me and the millions like me? Should I abstain? Yet it caters for people who lost the first referendum essentially? You can see my issue here I hope?

 

1st referendum was should we leave 

that’s been decided  we now should leave  

2nd referendum now should be how we leave  

its the only fair way to do it  sadly though and it’s true what so many people say including Boris if we remove no deal we have no hand for negotiations  but falling out of the EU wouldn’t serve any help in the short term  

but I stand by remain should no longer be an option as that shop has sailed and the first referendum dealt with it and it should be respected 

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

Sorry P I don’t agree  I want to leave but not without a deal so how does that referendum you suggest cater for me and the millions like me? Should I abstain? Yet it caters for people who lost the first referendum essentially? You can see my issue here I hope?

 

1st referendum was should we leave 

that’s been decided  we now should leave  

2nd referendum now should be how we leave  

its the only fair way to do it  sadly though and it’s true what so many people say including Boris if we remove no deal we have no hand for negotiations  but falling out of the EU wouldn’t serve any help in the short term  

but I stand by remain should no longer be an option as that shop has sailed and the first referendum dealt with it and it should be respected 

 

There are broadly 3 options now - leave with the negotiated WA, leave without a deal, remain.

I'm not sure why the public would be denied an option. Its not a "knockout". The point of a referendum is to ascertain what people want at this point in time given the failing of parliament and the clear differences between now and 2016. 

 

[Salford Trotter]

4 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

Sorry P I don’t agree  I want to leave but not without a deal so how does that referendum you suggest cater for me and the millions like me? Should I abstain? Yet it caters for people who lost the first referendum essentially? You can see my issue here I hope?

 

1st referendum was should we leave 

that’s been decided  we now should leave  

2nd referendum now should be how we leave  

its the only fair way to do it  sadly though and it’s true what so many people say including Boris if we remove no deal we have no hand for negotiations  but falling out of the EU wouldn’t serve any help in the short term  

but I stand by remain should no longer be an option as that shop has sailed and the first referendum dealt with it and it should be respected 

 

So May's deal or No Deal? I just don't see how that resolves things as May's deal is considered worse than staying in and if that is the end result aren't we back to square one? 

[Farrelli]

40 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

Depends who wins the GE, I’m a DEMOCRAT

You're definitely something beginning with D and it rhymes with Umbro.

[Escobarp]

12 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said:

So May's deal or No Deal? I just don't see how that resolves things as May's deal is considered worse than staying in and if that is the end result aren't we back to square one? 

May’s deal imo is what we have because she wouldn’t back no deal. It’s a high stakes game of poker and because of that we are where we are now. 

But what cannot happen is staying in in my opinion. We voted leave and have to leave. 

I work for a very large German company who are directly impacted by this so before anyone starts saying I don’t understand the impacts of this I really do. But I also realize the importance of upholding the decision of the original referendum. 

We leave and if we decide to do so at a point in the future subject to a referendum we apply to rejoin as may be the case 

but for me our politicians have failed us dramatically. And I actually think the buck stops with those that have tried to prevent the result from being upheld from day one. We wouldn’t be here now if they had accepted the result. 

I type this also with no emotion or rage just my view of how I see it again before I get people coming at me with shitty comments or links. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

May’s deal imo is what we have because she wouldn’t back no deal. It’s a high stakes game of poker and because of that we are where we are now. 

But what cannot happen is staying in in my opinion. We voted leave and have to leave. 

I work for a very large German company who are directly impacted by this so before anyone starts saying I don’t understand the impacts of this I really do. But I also realize the importance of upholding the decision of the original referendum. 

We leave and if we decide to do so at a point in the future subject to a referendum we apply to rejoin as may be the case 

but for me our politicians have failed us dramatically. And I actually think the buck stops with those that have tried to prevent the result from being upheld from day one. We wouldn’t be here now if they had accepted the result. 

I type this also with no emotion or rage just my view of how I see it again before I get people coming at me with shitty comments or links. 

What if public opinion now wants us to stay? Only way we can tell is to ask. And if answer is leave the second question is how? Make it binding. Then whole mess is sorted by public and is binding on government and parliament. 

 

[Newton White]

 

We cant have another referendum. 'The People' cannot micro manage the government by having a say in every decision.

Everyone who voted in the referendum to leave the EU also voted to leave the EU in the manner that the government decided to leave in. 

Lets say the government does negotiate a deal then should we all have another referendum based on no deal or the details of the deal we've just negotiated because you didn't vote for that deal either? It would just go on forever.

 

[Escobarp]

7 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

What if public opinion now wants us to stay? Only way we can tell is to ask. And if answer is leave the second question is how? Make it binding. Then whole mess is sorted by public and is binding on government and parliament. 

 

But again I will repeat myself. Public were asked and the decision was to leave and it’s not happened. You cannot reverse that decision for me until it’s been implemented. That’s the way I work in life and how I perceive democracies work as well. I agree to something I put it in place and I stick to it. 

[Salford Trotter]

13 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

May’s deal imo is what we have because she wouldn’t back no deal. It’s a high stakes game of poker and because of that we are where we are now. 

But what cannot happen is staying in in my opinion. We voted leave and have to leave. 

I work for a very large German company who are directly impacted by this so before anyone starts saying I don’t understand the impacts of this I really do. But I also realize the importance of upholding the decision of the original referendum. 

We leave and if we decide to do so at a point in the future subject to a referendum we apply to rejoin as may be the case 

but for me our politicians have failed us dramatically. And I actually think the buck stops with those that have tried to prevent the result from being upheld from day one. We wouldn’t be here now if they had accepted the result. 

I type this also with no emotion or rage just my view of how I see it again before I get people coming at me with shitty comments or links. 

I get that but if we go for another referendum then we can't put a vague option such as 'leave with a deal', we have to put two very clear and unambiguous options on the voting form. These would have to be May's deal or No Deal and May's deal would win hands down everytime. Where would that leave us? 

[Escobarp]

Just now, Salford Trotter said:

I get that but if we go for another referendum then we can't put a vague option such as 'leave with a deal', we have to put two very clear and unambiguous options on the voting form. These would have to be May's deal or No Deal and May's deal would win hands down everytime. Where would that leave us? 

It would leave us out of the EU simply as we voted as a country. Do I agree with all the details of the deal no but that’s not my job or my place or any of us. It is upto the government to get us the best deal they can. And because of how this has been handled this is the best deal currently unless we can re-negotiate. 

I hoped for a much better deal but we must stick the result. 

And as you say it should be no deal or Mays deal (or whatever deal we have agreed). That to me is the only questions that can and should be on any further referendum. Just my opinion

as an aside I will be at the hull kr game and will catch you for a pint ?

 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

But again I will repeat myself. Public were asked and the decision was to leave and it’s not happened. You cannot reverse that decision for me until it’s been implemented. That’s the way I work in life and how I perceive democracies work as well. I agree to something I put it in place and I stick to it. 

I think the public can. If they choose to. And given there are three broad options those need to be presented - clearly not in a straight run off. But somehow. 

[Escobarp]

1 minute ago, bwfcfan5 said:

I think the public can. If they choose to. And given there are three broad options those need to be presented - clearly not in a straight run off. But somehow. 

I disagree entirely. We should not be staying in the EU. And I believe unless lib dems get in via a GE we won’t be. Simple as that. And lib dems won’t get in we can all see that. 

So we are wasting time here. 

The real risk is that Boris wins a GE with a majority repeals the no deal bill and we crash out. If we don’t find a compromise now that is what happens in my opinion. 

But im far from an expert but I see it as a frank possibility right now 

[Salford Trotter]

7 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

It would leave us out of the EU simply as we voted as a country. Do I agree with all the details of the deal no but that’s not my job or my place or any of us. It is upto the government to get us the best deal they can. And because of how this has been handled this is the best deal currently unless we can re-negotiate. 

I hoped for a much better deal but we must stick the result. 

And as you say it should be no deal or Mays deal (or whatever deal we have agreed). That to me is the only questions that can and should be on any further referendum. Just my opinion

as an aside I will be at the hull kr game and will catch you for a pint ?

 

Would love a beer though Bleasey said to me that the game is likely to be moved for SKY should results go that way this weekend so it could be a Thurs or Friday. I will be there either way👍

[Spider]

Do we still hold all the cards?

[Tonge moor green jacket]

2 hours ago, Salford Trotter said:

So May's deal or No Deal? I just don't see how that resolves things as May's deal is considered worse than staying in and if that is the end result aren't we back to square one? 

Maybe, the current government should be given the maximum opportunity to renegotiate, particularly on issues that are big stumbling blocks. Then bring it back for approval?

Oh hang on; seems parliament won't do that. But they will, quite readily adopt a Swinson leave swerve, blatantly and unashamedly, designed to split a leave vote and make it appear remain is a preferred option.

No doubt she'll be behind providing every person in the country a full copy of the WA, and several copies of reports from all quarters on "no deal" so that a fully informed population can make a decision. Together with a series of reports into the EU detailing its merits, costs, drawbacks, corruption etc.

Or alternatively, accept what was decided, and grow the fuck up and get behind attempts to seal a good deal.

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Maybe, the current government should be given the maximum opportunity to renegotiate, particularly on issues that are big stumbling blocks. Then bring it back for approval?

Oh hang on; seems parliament won't do that. But they will, quite readily adopt a Swinson leave swerve, blatantly and unashamedly, designed to split a leave vote and make it appear remain is a preferred option.

No doubt she'll be behind providing every person in the country a full copy of the WA, and several copies of reports from all quarters on "no deal" so that a fully informed population can make a decision. Together with a series of reports into the EU detailing its merits, costs, drawbacks, corruption etc.

Or alternatively, accept what was decided, and grow the fuck up and get behind attempts to seal a good deal.

 

People don't believe there is any attempt being made to get a good deal. So if they left it till after the summit as you seem to be suggesting and no proper attempt is made - we're stuck with no deal. Which is what people believe the plan is. I think the majority of people believe that is the plan, whether leavers or remainers.

So are you really suggesting they just sit on their hands and let that happen if they believe no deal to be a negative thing?