Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Dimron]

It is becoming increasingly obvious to me that the leaders of Israel, Hamas, Ukraine and Russia all need to continue fighting or their grips on power will be destroyed and they'll all be overthrown and sent to whatever fates their populaces decide which will probably not be very nice.

[Winchester White]

Been reading a bit today about how this incursion into Russia by Ukrainian forces has really been a masterstroke. It completely blindsided Russia and they have had to divert a huge amount of resources to combat it.

That has led to increased losses on their lines within Ukraine that are especially vulnerable to drone strikes.

Good.

[Bertie]

I see JD Vance delivered a gaslighting master class in his non-relevant speech in Munich today, slagging off his supposed allies whilst promoting extremism and telling us Putin isn’t the main concern.

How did he say this with a straight face?…

"We know very well in America that you cannot win a democratic mandate by censoring your opponents or putting them in jail, whether that's the leader of the opposition, a humble Christian praying in her own home, or a journalist trying to report the news," he said.

“Lock her up” anyone?

“Fake news” anyone?

January 6th anyone?

etc…..

Really sad how the US has lost its moral compass so quickly.

[Dimron]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgl27x74wpo

I see Mr Z is covering his options by suggesting an "Army of Europe" should put boots onto the ground in Ukraine.

Point 1:: Does this assume Ukraine is to be a member of the EU?

Point 2: Should the UK commit to this Army not being an EU member?

Marine Hyde this morning with regard to the second point: "The UK's ego has long been writing cheques its body can't cash"

 

[Cheese]

6 minutes ago, Dimron said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvgl27x74wpo

I see Mr Z is covering his options by suggesting an "Army of Europe" should put boots onto the ground in Ukraine.

Point 1:: Does this assume Ukraine is to be a member of the EU?

Point 2: Should the UK commit to this Army not being an EU member?

Marine Hyde this morning with regard to the second point: "The UK's ego has long been writing cheques its body can't cash"

Why did we get involved when Hitler invaded Poland?

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

10 minutes ago, Dimron said:

Point 1:: Does this assume Ukraine is to be a member of the EU?

No

Point 2: Should the UK commit to this Army not being an EU member?

We should reaffirm our commitment to NATO

 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Aye.

Stick with NATO.

The militaries of NATO nations have, and are continuing to build, interoperability between equipment, whilst maintaining some diversity and independent development. 

Best of both worlds. 

Then there is also the success of the organisation. 

Just needs every member to pull its finger out when it comes to spending.

[Dimron]

9 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Why did we get involved when Hitler invaded Poland?

Because the UK and France honoured an Alliance Agreement with Poland signed off prior to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact... it wasn't just the Third Reich who invaded, Soviets and Slovaks were part of it... incidentally the citizens of Gdansk were in favour of the occupation being Germanic in descent.

The moral is that eastern European politics are very involved and complex, just like the Balkans and we really do not understand the history and pass our over-simplistic judgment upon hundreds of years of hatred ... in some ways we need to leave them to it

[Dimron]

20 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

 

The North American States are pulling out... Canada I recall is one of the lowest contributors... NATO will not survive in its present concept without their support...there's a new world order common along and we need to decide as a nation where we are going to belong

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

1 minute ago, Dimron said:

The North American States are pulling out... Canada I recall is one of the lowest contributors... NATO will not survive in its present concept without their support...there's a new world order common along and we need to decide as a nation where we are going to belong

Whether or not NATO continues to exist, a commitment to a pooling of resources rather than a de facto joint army is what we should go with, is the point

The UK will be,  land is, a part of the European bloc whether we like it or not

[Cheese]

4 minutes ago, Dimron said:

Because the UK and France honoured an Alliance Agreement with Poland signed off prior to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact... it wasn't just the Third Reich who invaded, Soviets and Slovaks were part of it... incidentally the citizens of Gdansk were in favour of the occupation being Germanic in descent.

The moral is that eastern European politics are very involved and complex, just like the Balkans and we really do not understand the history and pass our over-simplistic judgment upon hundreds of years of hatred ... in some ways we need to leave them to it

Exactly. The EU and NATO aren't the be all and end all.

[Dimron]

28 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Exactly. The EU and NATO aren't the be all and end all.

I think history tells us to be careful about what we sign up to, especially in these unstable times and a stagnating economy

[Dimron]

31 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

Whether or not NATO continues to exist, a commitment to a pooling of resources rather than a de facto joint army is what we should go with, is the point

The UK will be,  land is, a part of the European bloc whether we like it or not

There was a time when I would agree 100% but since the eastern expansion of the EU I have reservations. It is becoming a tinderbox not unlike Sarajevo in 1913/4.

I would really like to see an economic alliance not unlike the original Common Market

[Cheese]

1 minute ago, Dimron said:

There was a time when I would agree 100% but since the eastern expansion of the EU I have reservations. It is becoming a tinderbox not unlike Sarajevo in 1913/4.

I would really like to see an economic alliance not unlike the original Common Market

Like the thing that already exists, which we decided to leave a few years ago?

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

34 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Like the thing that already exists, which we decided to leave a few years ago?

To be fair, the EU as it is now is more than an economic alliance

[Cheese]

7 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

To be fair, the EU as it is now is more than an economic alliance

I'm talking about the Customs Union and Single Market, which are accessible without full EU membership.

[Winchester White]

8 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

To be fair, the EU as it is now is more than an economic alliance

You are correct but the changing world made the EC develop to the EU. It is deeply flawed however but miles better than trying to fly alone.

[Winchester White]

3 minutes ago, Cheese said:

I'm talking about the Customs Union and Single Market, which are accessible without full EU membership.

A fair stepping stone maybe?

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

26 minutes ago, Cheese said:

I'm talking about the Customs Union and Single Market, which are accessible without full EU membership.

Sure, but if I understand @Dimron correctly, it's what he'd prefer the EU itself to be, not unlike the common market between Western and Central European states it used to be

His concern is the incorporation of Eastern European states into what is now a political as well as economic union and its potential to drag us into conflicts he believes we shouldn't be involved with

[London Wanderer]

2 hours ago, Dimron said:

Because the UK and France honoured an Alliance Agreement with Poland signed off prior to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact... it wasn't just the Third Reich who invaded, Soviets and Slovaks were part of it... incidentally the citizens of Gdansk were in favour of the occupation being Germanic in descent.

The moral is that eastern European politics are very involved and complex, just like the Balkans and we really do not understand the history and pass our over-simplistic judgment upon hundreds of years of hatred ... in some ways we need to leave them to it

That would be bonkers

 & the complete opposite of what Eastern European countries want.

Even by Trump’s standards, it’s a shock to not include Europe in any piece talks. Fck him. 

[bolty58]

3 hours ago, Dimron said:

There was a time when I would agree 100% but since the eastern expansion of the EU I have reservations. It is becoming a tinderbox not unlike Sarajevo in 1913/4.

I would really like to see an economic alliance not unlike the original Common Market

Most sensible. Problem is the Eurocrats get carried away with their vision of their own importance.

[bolty58]

2 hours ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

To be fair, the EU as it is now is more than an economic alliance

He's a numb cunt.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

11 hours ago, bolty58 said:

He's a numb cunt.

If it had stayed merely an economic alliance, we'd still be in it, and captain curd wouldn't be moaning.

Then again..

[Dimron]

13 hours ago, London Wanderer said:

That would be bonkers

 & the complete opposite of what Eastern European countries want.

Even by Trump’s standards, it’s a shock to not include Europe in any piece talks. Fck him. 

I will Quote Ms Hyde from yesterdays Guardian again as I think it was quite relevant: "The UK's ego has long been writing cheques its body can't cash".

A few years ago I came across a book by Tim Butcher "The Trigger" which describes the background to a penniless Bosnian unwittingly firing the opening shots of the First World War in Sarajevo... It described very well how the tightly packed eastern European cultures historically despise each other irrespective of where modern day national boundaries lie and I can see parallels in Eastern Ukraine. If you see copy, pick it up its is a good read.

What do the Eastern European countries want? They want money, they continually want to put right their ghosts of the past and come out on top when fighting their traditional neighbouring foes

[Cheese]

19 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

If it had stayed merely an economic alliance, we'd still be in it, and captain curd wouldn't be moaning.

Then again..

We could still be in the Economic alliance, without rejoining the EU. For some reason, your lot screamed blue murder that it would be a "betrayal" and all sorts of other hysterical nonsense.