Meanwhile in Ukraine

[London Wanderer]

2 hours ago, Dimron said:

I will Quote Ms Hyde from yesterdays Guardian again as I think it was quite relevant: "The UK's ego has long been writing cheques its body can't cash".

A few years ago I came across a book by Tim Butcher "The Trigger" which describes the background to a penniless Bosnian unwittingly firing the opening shots of the First World War in Sarajevo... It described very well how the tightly packed eastern European cultures historically despise each other irrespective of where modern day national boundaries lie and I can see parallels in Eastern Ukraine. If you see copy, pick it up its is a good read.

What do the Eastern European countries want? They want money, they continually want to put right their ghosts of the past and come out on top when fighting their traditional neighbouring foes

Thanks for the recommendation. 

I think that's very generalised statement regarding what they want. Let's look at Ukraine for starters - Putin got a massive surprise by the level of resistance in the East. He was clearly expecting more people to drop their weapons and embrace joining Russia.

How different it all turned out to be.

None of that land is Russian. Not an acre of it.

I've no doubt Ukraine accepts the need to sacrifice some of the land to end this war. But it should be minimal. 

And what a fiasco the US are making of it, siding with a fascist dictator. 

[royal white]

What was the plan If Trump didn’t try to start these peace talks? Just carry on sending over billions of pounds whilst 1000s carry on dying? 

[kent_white]

13 minutes ago, royal white said:

What was the plan If Trump didn’t try to start these peace talks? Just carry on sending over billions of pounds whilst 1000s carry on dying? 

For me, that's up to Zelensky and the people of Ukraine. 

If they want peace talks, then so be it. If they what to keep on fighting, then we should keep on supporting them. 

What nobody should be doing is making that decision on their behalf - or entering into negotiations with Putin having already shown their hand. 

Perhaps it's all part of some elaborate ruse on Trump's part and he'll come out with something spectacular? I'll hang fire before I make a final judgement on it. 

[tyldesley_white]

4 minutes ago, kent_white said:

For me, that's up to Zelensky and the people of Ukraine. 

If they want peace talks, then so be it. If they what to keep on fighting, then we should keep on supporting them. 

What nobody should be doing is making that decision on their behalf - or entering into negotiations with Putin having already shown their hand. 

Perhaps it's all part of some elaborate ruse on Trump's part and he'll come out with something spectacular? I'll hang fire before I make a final judgement on it. 

See the negations with the Taliban over Afghanistan as a point of reference for Trump, again never involved the Afghans and that turned out so well

[Bertie]

12 minutes ago, kent_white said:

For me, that's up to Zelensky and the people of Ukraine. 

If they want peace talks, then so be it. If they what to keep on fighting, then we should keep on supporting them. 

What nobody should be doing is making that decision on their behalf - or entering into negotiations with Putin having already shown their hand. 

Perhaps it's all part of some elaborate ruse on Trump's part and he'll come out with something spectacular? I'll hang fire before I make a final judgement on it. 

Spectacular outcome or not, one foreign nation having bilateral conversations about the future of an independent democratic nation with the aggressor of that nation, (which happens to be run by a dictator) is bizarre in the extreme.  Incomprehensibly arrogant to say the least. How would we feel if it was us?  Ukraine, backed by European nations (and indeed the ROW) should immediately be saying to the US “go and knock yourself out talking to Russia in Saudi, but we will completely ignore any output.  You’re wasting your time. When you’ve finished trying to interfere give us a seat at the table to negotiate our future direct”. These US behaviours may now be normal within the US but internationally they should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Tossers.

Edited February 16, 2025 by Bertie

[Cheese]

42 minutes ago, royal white said:

What was the plan If Trump didn’t try to start these peace talks? Just carry on sending over billions of pounds whilst 1000s carry on dying? 

What was the plan post-1938 when Chamberlain rolled over and gave Germany the Sudetenland in order to "keep peace"?

[royal white]

32 minutes ago, kent_white said:

For me, that's up to Zelensky and the people of Ukraine. 

If they want peace talks, then so be it. If they what to keep on fighting, then we should keep on supporting them. 

What nobody should be doing is making that decision on their behalf - or entering into negotiations with Putin having already shown their hand. 

Perhaps it's all part of some elaborate ruse on Trump's part and he'll come out with something spectacular? I'll hang fire before I make a final judgement on it. 

So had any plans been made or is he just happy to keep taking billions off us for for many more years 
 

Was/is anyone in Europe prepared to speak to Putin? 
 

The only way to stop these wars is around a table. I’ve not seen many other leaders pushing for talks. 

[Bertie]

10 minutes ago, royal white said:

So had any plans been made or is he just happy to keep taking billions off us for for many more years 
 

Was/is anyone in Europe prepared to speak to Putin? 
 

The only way to stop these wars is around a table. I’ve not seen many other leaders pushing for talks. 

I’m sure the door was/is always open for talks if Putin unconditionally agreed to withdraw from the Ukrainian soil he illegally invaded.

But I agree - only talks can end wars.

Edited February 16, 2025 by Bertie

[Cheese]

13 minutes ago, Bertie said:

I’m sure the door was/is always open for talks if Putin unconditionally agreed to withdraw from the Ukrainian soil he illegally invaded.

But I agree - only talks can end wars.

Talks might end a war. But they won't end the ambitions of a brutal dictator. Ask Neville.

[royal white]

30 minutes ago, Bertie said:

I’m sure the door was/is always open for talks if Putin unconditionally agreed to withdraw from the Ukrainian soil he illegally invaded.

But I agree - only talks can end wars.

To even try and get to that point you need talks. Has any other country attempted? 

[Bertie]

3 minutes ago, royal white said:

To even try and get to that point you need talks. Has any other country attempted? 

I don’t know…..but not sure any talks are needed on that specific point? It’s fairly clear cut.  After that there can be negotiations around future security, NATO membership etc.

[royal white]

14 minutes ago, Bertie said:

I don’t know…..but not sure any talks are needed on that specific point? It’s fairly clear cut.  After that there can be negotiations around future security, NATO membership etc.

Do you seriously think Putin is just going to withdraw? 

[Cheese]

2 minutes ago, royal white said:

Do you seriously think Putin is just going to withdraw? 

Do you seriously think Putin is just going to accept the territory he's taken, and stop there?

[royal white]

2 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Do you seriously think Putin is just going to accept the territory he's taken, and stop there?

That’s for the talks. 

[Cheese]

Just now, royal white said:

That’s for the talks. 

Do you not think Ukraine should be given a say, seeing as it's their country that's been invaded?

[royal white]

2 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Do you not think Ukraine should be given a say, seeing as it's their country that's been invaded?

They will, otherwise nothing happens. 

[Farrelli]

2 hours ago, royal white said:

What was the plan If Trump didn’t try to start these peace talks? Just carry on sending over billions of pounds whilst 1000s carry on dying? 

So we should just give in to an aggressive nut job who has invaded his neighbour ?

[royal white]

2 minutes ago, Farrelli said:

So we should just give in to an aggressive nut job who has invaded his neighbour ?

No, we have talks, as I keep saying. Or do you think “we” should just carry on sending billions whilst 1000s die? 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

4 minutes ago, royal white said:

No, we have talks, as I keep saying. Or do you think “we” should just carry on sending billions whilst 1000s die? 

Both.

Sort out the end of the war, but keep the pressure on Putin's throat in the meantime. 

[Farrelli]

4 minutes ago, royal white said:

No, we have talks, as I keep saying. Or do you think “we” should just carry on sending billions whilst 1000s die? 

He should get out of Ukraine then talks can start immediately. Quite simple. 

[royal white]

Just now, Farrelli said:

He should get out of Ukraine then talks can start immediately. Quite simple. 

But he’s not going to do that is he 🤦🏻

[Dimron]

3 hours ago, London Wanderer said:

Thanks for the recommendation. 

I think that's very generalised statement regarding what they want. Let's look at Ukraine for starters - Putin got a massive surprise by the level of resistance in the East. He was clearly expecting more people to drop their weapons and embrace joining Russia.

How different it all turned out to be.

None of that land is Russian. Not an acre of it.

I've no doubt Ukraine accepts the need to sacrifice some of the land to end this war. But it should be minimal. 

And what a fiasco the US are making of it, siding with a fascist dictator. 

Putin expected to roll his tanks into Ukraine and install a pro-Russian puppet government just as the Soviet Union did previously in Hungary... it stalled for various reasons, one theory was the poor Chines tyres on his armoured columns stalling his push from Belarus. The West had already supplied sophisticated anti tank weapons and his military were massively out of date owing to a lack of investment. Everyone here knows I sometimes wish Putin had succeeded and things would have settled down again... as I have said borders and loyalties are very grey in central Europe.

Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union... Chernobyl is in Ukraine and Mussorgsky wrote of the Great Gates of Kiev, Kiev is the heart of the Russian Orthodox Church.

Mr Z needs the war as it is grip on power, his image is turning up at world forums in combat fatigues and DBs.... he can't go back to his people (of various ethnicity) and say it's over and your sons and husbands have died in vain.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2025 by Dimron

[Farrelli]

1 minute ago, royal white said:

But he’s not going to do that is he 🤦🏻

Well why should we believe anything he says ? The only thing Putin understands is force

[Dimron]

26 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Do you not think Ukraine should be given a say, seeing as it's their country that's been invaded?

Bigger stakes at play.

Mr Z will end up wanting to fight without Uncle Sucker funding and Russia will just soak it up.

Do the UK now join a European Army and fight on? I for one would rather not

[Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Dimron said:

Bigger stakes at play.

Mr Z will end up wanting to fight without Uncle Sucker funding and Russia will just soak it up.

Do the UK now join a European Army and fight on? I for one would rather not

What are the "bigger stakes at play", do you think? 🤦‍♂️