Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Tonge moor green jacket]

1 hour ago, Dimron said:

So would you now agree that Zelensky and his political party do have some responsibility for the shit show we now see? Putin is definitely not innocent but Z is not as squeaky clean as some commentators make out, his primary responsibility was to protect his people and not expose them to such danger.

They got in on the Euro-ticket but then proceeded to wind-up their previous occupiers who are known for their brutal and inhumane outlook to their populace. 

I referred to it as "pulling the bears tail" when it all first kicked off.

A load of absolute cock.

They're are a sovereign nation, fully entitled to pursue their own identity.

If the soviet system had been remotely decent: hadn't shafted Ukraine, murdered many of its people, stolen their food etc previously, then who knows, the country might have been happy not going down this route.

To suggest VZ shouldn't undertake what his people want, for fear of exposing them to the same tyrannical overlord is perverse in the extreme.

I reckon you would be hard pressed to find many Ukrainians angry at him for his leadership, and standing up for their rights.

Additionally, he was elected almost by accident, as the people made their ire at the alternatives known.

The ones with proven dodgy links.

You seen desperate to put VZ in the same category- just like the BBC did with Trump. 

[Winchester White]

34 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

A load of absolute cock.

They're are a sovereign nation, fully entitled to pursue their own identity.

If the soviet system had been remotely decent: hadn't shafted Ukraine, murdered many of its people, stolen their food etc previously, then who knows, the country might have been happy not going down this route.

To suggest VZ shouldn't undertake what his people want, for fear of exposing them to the same tyrannical overlord is perverse in the extreme.

I reckon you would be hard pressed to find many Ukrainians angry at him for his leadership, and standing up for their rights.

Additionally, he was elected almost by accident, as the people made their ire at the alternatives known.

The ones with proven dodgy links.

You seen desperate to put VZ in the same category- just like the BBC did with Trump. 

Absolutely with you apart from the strange conflation in your last sentence.

[Not in Crawley]

2 hours ago, Winchester White said:

Absolutely with you apart from the strange conflation in your last sentence.

Do you like ChatGPT? 😁

[Dimron]

11 hours ago, Not in Crawley said:

Do you like ChatGPT? 😁

The only A I from me is Actual Ignorance 😆

[Dimron]

14 hours ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

A load of absolute cock.

They're are a sovereign nation, fully entitled to pursue their own identity.

If the soviet system had been remotely decent: hadn't shafted Ukraine, murdered many of its people, stolen their food etc previously, then who knows, the country might have been happy not going down this route.

To suggest VZ shouldn't undertake what his people want, for fear of exposing them to the same tyrannical overlord is perverse in the extreme.

I reckon you would be hard pressed to find many Ukrainians angry at him for his leadership, and standing up for their rights.

Additionally, he was elected almost by accident, as the people made their ire at the alternatives known.

The ones with proven dodgy links.

You seen desperate to put VZ in the same category- just like the BBC did with Trump. 

There might be a lesson here regarding popularist politics. The Ukrainian people didn't vote for a war with their bigger neighbour, they voted for the cheeky chappie from the telly.

As you say, he came into the election very late without definite policies except to end government corruption and did all his hustings on social media & you tube with few, if any personal traditional media appearances. He won a landslide because he was new and not "old guard".

When he took office, almost accidentally, he continued with the behaviour that made him popular in the "Servant of the People" show, however the cheeky chappie antagonised his neighbours and Trump at one time over his dealings with Biden Jnr. I doubt the old guard would have dared to be so radical and would have continued keeping the peace and retiring with a nice nest egg (ps Z isn't a poor man anymore either).

I agree with Trump that this all should have been nipped in the bud but it wasn't and there is now a horrible war to be prosecuted.

A single popularist vote against the political elite has resulted in thousands of deaths, factories destroyed and economic ruin.

My message would be "careful what you wish/vote for"

 

[Cheese]

3 minutes ago, Dimron said:

There might be a lesson here regarding popularist politics. The Ukrainian people didn't vote for a war with their bigger neighbour, they voted for the cheeky chappie from the telly.

As you say, he came into the election very late without definite policies except to end government corruption and did all his hustings on social media & you tube with few, if any personal traditional media appearances. He won a landslide because he was new and not "old guard".

When he took office, almost accidentally, he continued with the behaviour that made him popular in the "Servant of the People" show, however the cheeky chappie antagonised his neighbours and Trump at one time over his dealings with Biden Jnr. I doubt the old guard would have dared to be so radical and would have continued keeping the peace and retiring with a nice nest egg (ps Z isn't a poor man anymore either).

I agree with Trump that this all should have been nipped in the bud but it wasn't and there is now a horrible war to be prosecuted.

A single popularist vote against the political elite has resulted in thousands of deaths, factories destroyed and economic ruin.

My message would be "careful what you wish/vote for"

I bet you blame battered wives for their beatings when they put too much milk in their husbands tea.

[Dimron]

6 minutes ago, Cheese said:

I bet you blame battered wives for their beatings when they put too much milk in their husbands tea.

I'd have thought you particularly would see my point about voting for popularists with little experience and few policies.

[athywhite1958]

14 minutes ago, Dimron said:

There might be a lesson here regarding popularist politics. The Ukrainian people didn't vote for a war with their bigger neighbour, 

 

IIRC, they were invaded by a Russian despot, Zelensky is doing everything he can to protect his people, what else would you expect him to do?

[Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Dimron said:

I'd have thought you particularly would see my point about voting for popularists with little experience and few policies.

I see the point you're trying to make, but it's nonsense and just makes you sound like a Putin appeaser.

[Dimron]

3 minutes ago, athywhite1958 said:

IIRC, they were invaded by a Russian despot, Zelensky is doing everything he can to protect his people, what else would you expect him to do?

Unfortunately it now needs to be fought out to a conclusion, whatever that is.

Also needs to be contained to the region as this sort of conflict can spread rapidly... we aren't doing a very good job of that in my opinion.

[Dimron]

4 minutes ago, Cheese said:

I see the point you're trying to make, but it's nonsense and just makes you sound like a Putin appeaser.

No appeaser, I tend to be my own man, who believes in learning from history, I would like to hear your solutions

[Cheese]

1 minute ago, Dimron said:

No appeaser, I tend to be my own man, who believes in learning from history, I would like to hear your solutions

So explain why Russia invaded Crimea in 2014.

[Dimron]

59 minutes ago, Cheese said:

So explain why Russia invaded Crimea in 2014.

Officially they didn't although Putin conceded he did later... the kindly Russians then arranged elections enabling the annexation. To answer your question they require an access corridor to their Black Sea Fleet.

Ps... Great Britain probably has a stronger claim over Crimea in accordance with the Treaty of Paris... so maybe we should send the boys in ?

[Cheese]

3 minutes ago, Dimron said:

Officially they didn't although Putin conceded he did later... the kindly Russians then arranged elections enabling the annexation. To answer your question they require an access corridor to their Black Sea Fleet.

Ps... Great Britain probably has a stronger claim over Crimea in accordance with the Treaty of Paris... so maybe we should send the boys in ?

Absolutely puddled.

[Dimron]

33 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Absolutely puddled.

You'd only believe it if it was on your twitter feed

[Sweep]

3 hours ago, Cheese said:

I bet you blame battered wives for their beatings when they put too much milk in their husbands tea.

They only have themselves to blame, especially if they've been warned about it before 

[Dimron]

1 hour ago, Sweep said:

They only have themselves to blame, especially if they've been warned about it before 

I don't quite get the analogy... I would go for something like would you send your daughter to Fred West patio builders or Ian Huntley cleaning services if you knew the risks.

My point was we could try to learn about how a popularist ant-establishment campaign and vote has caused untold damage and we need to avoid making the same mistake (we have a fag smoking pint drinking Servant of the People gaining traction)... hopefully damage will be less severe.

Ukraine? They've got to face up to their policy mistakes might lead to territory loss in order to find peace.

[boltonboris]

I may be missing something, but you seem to be blaming the war on Ukraine fighting back, as opposed to Russia invading Ukraine.. 

I’ll be honest, I’m confused at your angle if it’s not the above..

[Dimron]

I will cease my appeasement.

Let's put boots on the ground as part of the Coalition of the Willing as it seems that is what you lot want,  and wait for the body bags.

Me? I'm going to invest in prosthetics.

 

[boltonboris]

22 minutes ago, Dimron said:

I will cease my appeasement.

Let's put boots on the ground as part of the Coalition of the Willing as it seems that is what you lot want,  and wait for the body bags.

Me? I'm going to invest in prosthetics.

 

No, I don’t want war. I wish Russia had never invaded Ukraine. I’m just not sure on your angle. Honestly. Do you blame the ongoing war on Ukraine because they didn’t immediately surrender? 
 

I’m trying to think of a relevant analogy, and the best one I can currently think of is; imagine you’re at home with your family watching a bit of Saturday night TV. And a Bloke walks into your house trying to rob it. You defend yourself and get into a fight and your neighbours come out and blame you for it as your actions caused the fight. Would you think they’re correct to blame you, instead of the man who tried to rob your house?

[Tonge moor green jacket]

21 hours ago, Winchester White said:

Absolutely with you apart from the strange conflation in your last sentence.

Quite obvious really. 

Both want to distance themselves from reality, for whatever purpose.

[Dimron]

1 hour ago, boltonboris said:

No, I don’t want war. I wish Russia had never invaded Ukraine. I’m just not sure on your angle. Honestly. Do you blame the ongoing war on Ukraine because they didn’t immediately surrender? 
 

I’m trying to think of a relevant analogy, and the best one I can currently think of is; imagine you’re at home with your family watching a bit of Saturday night TV. And a Bloke walks into your house trying to rob it. You defend yourself and get into a fight and your neighbours come out and blame you for it as your actions caused the fight. Would you think they’re correct to blame you, instead of the man who tried to rob your house?

Not about immediately surrendering but using diplomacy and experience to avoid a situation. Popularists by their very nature are unable to do this.

K is a popularist who has now had to adopt the role of a war leader (he is an actor by the way) ... worked on the weights, adopted a gravelly voice, grown a beard and taken to wear a battledress.. not that long ago he was the voice of Padington Bear.

Going to follow the party line now... send the Queen Elizabeth and our F35s through the Bosphorus and bomb the bastards.

[jmjhb]

So the US peace plan is for Ukraine to give up more land than the Russians have seized. 

Let's not appease.

[Bertie]

3 hours ago, jmjhb said:

So the US peace plan is for Ukraine to give up more land than the Russians have seized. 

Let's not appease.

Disgusting isn’t it. Not a surprise though given the hold Putin has on Agent Krasnov in the Whitehouse.

US foreign policy has no morals since the orange thicko came to power. All about money and favours. Zero leadership.

[Sweep]

3 hours ago, jmjhb said:

So the US peace plan is for Ukraine to give up more land than the Russians have seized. 

Let's not appease.

24 hours, that's all he needs to end this war apparently.