Brand Evatt

[Mounts Kipper]

1 hour ago, wakey said:

Does anybody still want Evatt here come January?

If so, why ... is it loyalty, a sense we owe him something, fear of getting a poor replacement, or a genuine belief he's the man to take us up?

Genuine question, not prodding for a row, but if it's the latter I'm curious as to what's behind your optimism (and maybe I can cling to some of it if he's still here in Jan).

Be nice to have a reasonable discussion about it without the usual point scoring *.

 

 

 

* folllowed, obviously, with a club shop straightener.

I’m just still in keep him camp, why you might ask, players still look committed and mainly happy, new signings and formation not bedded in yet, we’ve had injuries to key players and most coming back soon, taking all that into account we are just shy of 24 points from the last 12 games. Finally if we do replace there will be a heavy cost and there is no guarantee things will get markedly better.

[thebells]

Board will simply look at the points tally from last 10 / 11 games which, I think, is 2 points per game. If they accept the first 4 games experiment was an over-reactionary cock up, they'll hedge their bets that it's better to stick than twist at the moment.

As mentioned elsewhere, he has one huge supporter on the board which helps his cause.

I don't really think money needs spending in January. We are probably one attacker heavy and one midfield light, but that can be rectified quickly with Morley in and one of Lolos / Arfield / CMG out.

I do know our current former captain isn't keen to sign a contract (not Evatt related), so there will need to be a decision on him in January. 

 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

If Santos wants away, then fair enough.

Unless we have improved and are there or thereabouts at Christmas, then flog him, look for a replacement during the rest of the season and make use of the squad.

Not sure spanking a load more in January, if we're a way off makes sense.

[wakey]

9 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

I’m just still in keep him camp, why you might ask, players still look committed and mainly happy, new signings and formation not bedded in yet, we’ve had injuries to key players and most coming back soon, taking all that into account we are just shy of 24 points from the last 12 games. Finally if we do replace there will be a heavy cost and there is no guarantee things will get markedly better.

I think this is the point that resonates the most - I've wanted plenty (most) managers gone at some point post BSA but we've appointed some absolute shite in that time. Have to trust that the current board will make a better fist of it when the time comes.

I'm struggling to see us really turning things around under him now (not talking a decent run against relegation fodder) and see too many red flags. It would take a phenomenally good run - including the sorts of games we don't normally win - for me to have any confidence that he can turn a corner.

Flipping that, what would it take before you felt the time had come for a change?

[Zog1]

14 minutes ago, thebells said:

Board will simply look at the points tally from last 10 / 11 games which, I think, is 2 points per game. If they accept the first 4 games experiment was an over-reactionary cock up, they'll hedge their bets that it's better to stick than twist at the moment.

As mentioned elsewhere, he has one huge supporter on the board which helps his cause.

I don't really think money needs spending in January. We are probably one attacker heavy and one midfield light, but that can be rectified quickly with Morley in and one of Lolos / Arfield / CMG out.

I do know our current former captain isn't keen to sign a contract (not Evatt related), so there will need to be a decision on him in January. 

 

Even if Morley did come back, i don't think he will. He'd go back to being as poor as he was last season, the problem isn't him. This is why i can't really blame the players for their performances, i have no idea if it's down to their ability or the way Evatt has them set up.

[thebells]

10 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

If Santos wants away, then fair enough.

Unless we have improved and are there or thereabouts at Christmas, then flog him, look for a replacement during the rest of the season and make use of the squad.

Not sure spanking a load more in January, if we're a way off makes sense.

To clarify, it's not so much 'wanting away' as feeling ready for a new challenge. 

A whopper of a contract or a promotion can change minds, but right now (or certainly as of last weekend), there was no wish to sign a contract.

 

[barrycowdrill]

22 minutes ago, thebells said:

I do know our current former captain isn't keen to sign a contract (not Evatt related),

Expect to see him with his foot on one of my Amazon parcels at the end of the drive anytime after New Year then.. 

[Greg_BWFC]

1 hour ago, barrycowdrill said:

We could be well of the pace by NYD judging by the next run of fixtures… 

there’s talk about us being busy in the Jan window. Would anyone trust him considering how this season is currently panning out after the money he spent already this year?… 

 

After squeaking past Blackpool, had a look at the rest of this year's fixtures and as we're playing catch up, thought we really needed to win the lot.

And also thought us capable of doing so.

Didn't see us falling at the first fence so it shows how much I know 🤷‍♂️

 

 

[Tombwfc]

Why does the last 10 games form table count more than the last 6 games (7th) or the last 16 games (8th)?

[barrycowdrill]

7 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

Why does the last 10 games form table count more than the last 6 games (7th) or the last 16 games (8th)?

Can manipulate the games total however you want depending on what you’re trying to convey.. 

unbeaten in 2 as an example 😉 

[desperado]

27 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

Why does the last 10 games form table count more than the last 6 games (7th) or the last 16 games (8th)?

I don’t think people do think one form table means more than another. Well I don’t anyway. 

With Evatt it goes far further than this now. The trend of “key” games is more telling than any recent run.

But on the flip-side you can’t expect it not to be used by fans, the manager and possibly even the board.

In my eyes the board will be using this (rightly or wrongly), so that every time there is a blip, there’s a reset on what needs to happen and what results must look like over a period of time.

We’ve had endless amounts of posts about what would it take for people to draw a line and lots of those are based around results over a period of time.

The issue with “form” as you quite rightly state is; what is it? 10 games? 6 Games? People will just throw out what suits their opinion.

But if you’re going to debate then expect it to be used. 
 

Edited November 27, 2024 by desperado

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

2 hours ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

That's a cup half full comment.

I'm sure over time there will be examples of clubs that have.

It's how you view it.

We've been here quite a bit recently, nearly but not quite men.

We could remain around 9th all season, and be just a few points off.

Ultimately, it comes down to FV and at what point they decide that almost being there isn't good enough. 

For what it's worth, I wasn't making any comment beyond clarifying someone's post

[Zico]

2 hours ago, gonzo said:

I do. I feel now isn't the time to be sacking him. 

He's only a couple of disastrous capitulations away from a proper hound out mind. Wigan being a possible back breaking straw.

On then other hand, We are another decent run from being properly in the mixer and we are actually in form, regardless of actual performances.

Get points when you're playing bad and you're halfway there.

It's a crap league, with a crap standard of football. We just have to be a bit less crap than everyone else.

We won't be far off. Imo.

far off what - the top two or top six?

I'm neither here nor there in terms of get rid becuase basically I don't think it's happening anyway

so I just look at and think well if we can sort our shit out and play how we know we can play on a regular basis, then we can still make a fist of it

it's just that we don't currently look like reaching the levels we reached post Huddersfield / pre Stockport

it looks like a key issue is because we miss Dempsey

but that's no excuse for some of the shite we've been served up

the other thing that frustrates me is what IE comes out with

what was it last night, we were winning and we didn't need to score another?

we were against 10 men and we're on minus goal difference

currently GD is what is keeping us out the play offs

he's a prick, he does my head in

[Rizlar]

5 minutes ago, Zico said:

far off what - the top two or top six?

I'm neither here nor there in terms of get rid becuase basically I don't think it's happening anyway

so I just look at and think well if we can sort our shit out and play how we know we can play on a regular basis, then we can still make a fist of it

it's just that we don't currently look like reaching the levels we reached post Huddersfield / pre Stockport

it looks like a key issue is because we miss Dempsey

but that's no excuse for some of the shite we've been served up

the other thing that frustrates me is what IE comes out with

what was it last night, we were winning and we didn't need to score another?

we were against 10 men and we're on minus goal difference

currently GD is what is keeping us out the play offs

he's a prick, he does my head in

Good post that’s where I am at with him I don’t understand his thinking whatsoever and his post match comments are becoming embarrassing. 
Like you say and others he’s going nowhere we are stuck with him and the players so let’s hope between them they can start playing like a football team who give a shit! 

[mickbrown]

Two things are certain  

He isn’t getting us promoted and he’s getting potted at some point. 

The variable in all this is when?

Leave it too long and we are writing this season off.
 

I’m guessing the board might be ok with that. 
 

 

Edited November 27, 2024 by mickbrown

[Cheese]

14 minutes ago, mickbrown said:

Two things are certain  

He isn’t getting us promoted and he’s getting potted at some point. 

The variable in all this is when?

Leave it too long and we are writing this season off.

I’m guessing the board might be ok with that. 

Neither of those things are certain. 🤷‍♂️ They're your opinions.

[Whitestar]

23 minutes ago, mickbrown said:

 

 

I’m guessing the board might be ok with that. 
 

 

Well if the board are ok with that, then it just goes to show that their unambitious target will be hit with amazing accuracy.

[thebells]

55 minutes ago, Rizlar said:

Good post that’s where I am at with him I don’t understand his thinking whatsoever and his post match comments are becoming embarrassing. 
Like you say and others he’s going nowhere we are stuck with him and the players so let’s hope between them they can start playing like a football team who give a shit! 

I think there is consistency to his post match comments. They tend to deflect blame onto the players.

Post Stockport he referred to standards, last night it was game management. I'm not necessarily blaming him for that, or even saying he is wrong. The players should really have seen last nights game out. They should also have dug in at Stockport more than they did. 

The comments do suggest, though, that he's unsure how to get the extra 5-10% he needs from them, and that's my biggest concern. I mentioned last night that one of the players (could have been Matete) took a direct shot from kick off after their equaliser. I just can't see that any player would have done that in those circumstances in seasons gone by.

Again, I'm not suggesting he's 'lost' the dressing room. I do think, though, that he's struggling to get that last but out of the players, and he isn't sure himself how to do it. 

The underlying tone of comments seems to be around 'culture', both in training and matches (backed up on here by a couple of ITKish people). He even said himself that the return of GJ and GT to training had improved standards. That's great, but I'd argue that shouldn't need to be the case. It's likely we've now got a combination of players struggling still to get over last season, players running down contracts, players constantly struggling with injuries and a couple of difficult to manage young prima donnas. All in all, not a great mix.

I'm fairly certain we have the talent in the squad to be promoted, and I'm fairly certain Sam Hird played a bigger role than any of us realise.

Whilst I lean towards us needing a change at the top, I'm open to giving him time to see what he can do over the next few weeks. We'll stay in touch with the play offs enough that, if a change was needed in January, there is still time to end the season well (top 6 as opposed to top 2).

 

 

[mickbrown]

13 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Neither of those things are certain. 🤷‍♂️ They're your opinions.

100% nailed on (in my opinion)

[barrycowdrill]

I said this before on this thread, no one knows for sure of course but in the longer term I think (yes an opinion) the only way he stays is if we are promoted at the end of the season. Regardless of whether thats 1st, 2nd or 6th. 
 

he was uncertain himself after Wembley whether he could give it anymore and take us that one step further. It isn’t too far off the realms of reality to conclude if we don’t get there after another shot Evatt will recognise it’s not happening. 
 

He could get us 6th which technically is 3 steps back from last season but still get us up which then turns in to progress. literally anything other than promotion is going backwards. 
 

the only other scenario is if results take that much of a turn that we’re out of the running. But whilst it’s still mathematically possible I think he stays until at least the end of the season 

[Cheese]

7 minutes ago, barrycowdrill said:

I said this before on this thread, no one knows for sure of course but in the longer term I think (yes an opinion) the only way he stays is if we are promoted at the end of the season. Regardless of whether thats 1st, 2nd or 6th. 
 

he was uncertain himself after Wembley whether he could give it anymore and take us that one step further. It isn’t too far off the realms of reality to conclude if we don’t get there after another shot Evatt will recognise it’s not happening. 
 

He could get us 6th which technically is 3 steps back from last season but still get us up which then turns in to progress. literally anything other than promotion is going backwards. 
 

the only other scenario is if results take that much of a turn that we’re out of the running. But whilst it’s still mathematically possible I think he stays until at least the end of the season 

I agree that if we don't go up this season he's obviously finished. But there's 30 games left to play, and we're not far off where we need to be. He's had a couple of resurgences in his time here after being written off, so I'm keeping the faith for the moment.

[Rizlar]

17 minutes ago, thebells said:

I think there is consistency to his post match comments. They tend to deflect blame onto the players.

Post Stockport he referred to standards, last night it was game management. I'm not necessarily blaming him for that, or even saying he is wrong. The players should really have seen last nights game out. They should also have dug in at Stockport more than they did. 

The comments do suggest, though, that he's unsure how to get the extra 5-10% he needs from them, and that's my biggest concern. I mentioned last night that one of the players (could have been Matete) took a direct shot from kick off after their equaliser. I just can't see that any player would have done that in those circumstances in seasons gone by.

Again, I'm not suggesting he's 'lost' the dressing room. I do think, though, that he's struggling to get that last but out of the players, and he isn't sure himself how to do it. 

The underlying tone of comments seems to be around 'culture', both in training and matches (backed up on here by a couple of ITKish people). He even said himself that the return of GJ and GT to training had improved standards. That's great, but I'd argue that shouldn't need to be the case. It's likely we've now got a combination of players struggling still to get over last season, players running down contracts, players constantly struggling with injuries and a couple of difficult to manage young prima donnas. All in all, not a great mix.

I'm fairly certain we have the talent in the squad to be promoted, and I'm fairly certain Sam Hird played a bigger role than any of us realise.

Whilst I lean towards us needing a change at the top, I'm open to giving him time to see what he can do over the next few weeks. We'll stay in touch with the play offs enough that, if a change was needed in January, there is still time to end the season well (top 6 as opposed to top 2).

 

 

Agree with your comments he is definitely going nowhere atm.

[Didledee]

Our form from Jan 24- to Wembley was outside the playoffs, then that 0 shot on target Wembley happened and since then we've gone even further in decline, if we can't beat an u21 side, if we lose to a League 2 side, if we concede and can't beat 10 men along with getting thrashed home and away 4-0 and 5-0, then there is no given that we'll even scrape a playoff/top half.

Just over a year ago we won 7-0 and Evatt was getting MOTM, a year forward and it's not even close to then now, the thing we have is that we have talented players, so we'll pick up more points than we lose, but it won't be enough for our targets if things don't change, perhaps like his first season it'll take a brilliant January transfer window to sort it out, because it looks like he's not going to get sacked, because surely that would have happened by now.

Edited November 27, 2024 by Didledee

[Rizlar]

4 minutes ago, Didledee said:

Our form from Jan 24- to Wembley was outside the playoffs, then that 0 shot on target Wembley happened and since then we've gone even further in decline, if we can't beat an u21 side, if we lose to a League 2 side, if we concede and can't beat 10 men along with getting thrashed home and away 4-0 and 5-0, then there is no given that we'll even scrape a playoff/top half.

Just over a year ago we won 7-0 and Evatt was getting MOTM, a year forward and it's not even close to then now, the thing we have is that we have talented players, so we'll pick up more points than we lose, but it won't be enough for our targets if things don't change, perhaps like his first season it'll take a brilliant January transfer window to sort it out, because it looks like he's not going to get sacked, because surely that would have happened by now.

Would the board back him in the transfer window in January because going off his last 3 him and Markham have been at best poor. 

[Rival Son]

3 hours ago, Traf said:

Looks like Morley has turned into Pirlo whilst away

In what season did Pirlo play in League One, which is the comparator? Don’t give me that bull, Traf. The reality goes something like this.

During the 2022/23 season, we had a very good midfield three, where Sheehan and Morley played side by side, as 6s, while Dempsey operated in a more box to box 8 role. This was as good a midfield three in League One, and should have been retained last season. At this point, Thomason could only get a look in, as a sub or injury replacement.

What changed was, at the start of last season, someone at Bristol City decided  Thomason was worth £1 million; but George didn’t fancy the move. All of a sudden, Evatt seemed to have a Damascene conversion and, to coin a phrase, believed Thomason had turned into Pirlo (see how childish that reads, Traf).

What is certainly true is that from the start of last season, Thomason became a first choice midfielder and Evatt changed the midfield shape, with Sheehan dropping into the “pivot role”, with 2 6s (Thomason and Maghoma/Dempsey) in front of him. From this point, Morley was only seen as backup to Sheehan and was unfairly judged only in this role; he could quite easily have operated well as one of the 2 x 6 roles.

in my opinion, our midfield has looked disjointed since this time. We have tried various personnel and shapes, with none of them convincing. At this point, I want to stress that this is not a dig at Thomason, who provides an energy and passion that many in our squad would do well to follow. Moreover, he is one of a small few prepared to have a shot from 20-25 yards (sometimes, quite well).

Ironically, Evatt, whether by design or chance, seemed to have a second Damascene moment a couple of months ago, when we finally reverted to a shape of 2 x 6s (Sheehan and Thomason) and an 8 (Dempsey). The handful of games before simultaneous injuries to Thomason and Dempsey, were our best spell of 2024. No coincidence, in my opinion.

Therefore, we need to retain this shape and urgently resolve the personnel issues that limit this. Bring Morley back into fold. Sheehan and Morley would be limited to the 6 roles. Dempsey would exclusively be an 8. I believe Thomason has the engine and eye for goal, to play the 8 role, as well as a 6. With injuries and suspensions, all would get almost 100% game time, when fit.

Get rid of those that don’t fit this shape or are simply not good enough: Arfield, Matete and Lolos. Use our youngsters as backup to the core four: recall Khumbeni from Accrington and promote Sharples to a squad backup role.

Of other players, I still think if fitness can be fully restored, CMG can still offer options as an 8 or 10. McAtee should be used only in forward roles, as a 9 and backup to Charles or 10 (Collins).

Finally, thanks to Traf for winding me up sufficiently to write this essay. 😘