jazza Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'm obviously mistaken. I thought he moved to Legia Warsaw. My point still holds true - BWFC have had quite a number of young players over the years who have moved on to decent careers for nowt. I am convinced we have a bunch of useless numpties running the club. Most seasoned businessmen would not let things get to the state where investments in potentially valuable assets are allowed to go for no return. What I mean by that is that very regular close and careful monitoring of the investments in the academy should lead to the early release of players who are not meeting a pre-set agreed set of achievements. The ones who do meet the levels required must get some first team exposure - even in the "Barclays Premier League." You don't say!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwetter2 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 You don't say!!! I do say! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank_spencer Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'm obviously mistaken. I thought he moved to Legia Warsaw. My point still holds true - BWFC have had quite a number of young players over the years who have moved on to decent careers for nowt. I am convinced we have a bunch of useless numpties running the club. Most seasoned businessmen would not let things get to the state where investments in potentially valuable assets are allowed to go for no return. What I mean by that is that very regular close and careful monitoring of the investments in the academy should lead to the early release of players who are not meeting a pre-set agreed set of achievements. The ones who do meet the levels required must get some first team exposure - even in the "Barclays Premier League." define decent careers? Dzemaili was let go as he had been injured for most of his time at the club and he decided he should move on. Other than him i cant think of anyone who we've let go who's gone on to be a world beater. Jon Walters has had more clubs than soft mick. theres a couple of our ex academy lads kicking around the lower leagues though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazza Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Joey O'Brien is another decent player let go, but his injury record was worse than Dzemalis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwetter2 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 define decent careers? Dzemaili was let go as he had been injured for most of his time at the club and he decided he should move on. Other than him i cant think of anyone who we've let go who's gone on to be a world beater. Jon Walters has had more clubs than soft mick. theres a couple of our ex academy lads kicking around the lower leagues though My point was that the players who are "worth" persisting with are few and far between, or have been over the last 10 years. Why keep the dross in the academy just to fill the numbers. Why not be more discerning and only keep kids who keep meeting a pre-set series of goals. Blood them early and regularly and do not keep investing (because it does cost the club even though the fixed costs of running the academy are quite high) if there is insufficient progression. The goal should be to produce footballers who can at least do the business in the Championship so that we can get some money back if they have to be sold. The whole set-up appears to be haphazard and poorly run. As I said, a real business person would not let the current situation continue for long. Sometimes ex-footballers are the worst people to be involved in the running of a club and I would suggest that Jimmy Phillips, et al are good examples of the wrong sort of selection/promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 My point was that the players who are "worth" persisting with are few and far between, or have been over the last 10 years. Why keep the dross in the academy just to fill the numbers. Why not be more discerning and only keep kids who keep meeting a pre-set series of goals. Blood them early and regularly and do not keep investing (because it does cost the club even though the fixed costs of running the academy are quite high) if there is insufficient progression. The goal should be to produce footballers who can at least do the business in the Championship so that we can get some money back if they have to be sold. The whole set-up appears to be haphazard and poorly run. As I said, a real business person would not let the current situation continue for long. Sometimes ex-footballers are the worst people to be involved in the running of a club and I would suggest that Jimmy Phillips, et al are good examples of the wrong sort of selection/promotion. do you think our youth system just consists of a bloke in tight shorts with whistle shouting at kids to run round cones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didledee Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Dzemaili, sorry the 'white Okocha' is a quality player, surely he can't be judged on reserves and that Sheff United F.A Cup defeat after having a major injury. He's far better than some of the dross we've had since, technique wise, every bit as good as M.Davies, Lee and Holden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwetter2 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 do you think our youth system just consists of a bloke in tight shorts with whistle shouting at kids to run round cones? Pretty much, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Pretty much, yes. well im very good mates with the dad of ryan state who is currently pushing for the resverves. he spent most of his youth at blackpool and moved to bolton aged 15..and both of them say the difference is resounding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QFPants Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Might be worth comparing the clubs competing in our local catchment area with the clubs Southampton are competing with before we go overboard with the comparisons. We haven't had anywhere near as many through as we should have done, but hopefully that will turn around now we are throwing more resources at it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traf Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 the difference is resounding. Better at Bolton, or worse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnoopJohnnyJohn Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Dzemaili, sorry the 'white Okocha' is a quality player, surely he can't be judged on reserves and that Sheff United F.A Cup defeat after having a major injury. He's far better than some of the dross we've had since, technique wise, every bit as good as M.Davies, Lee and Holden. Just out of interest... why do you compare everyone to Okocha? The white Okocha The Korean Okocha As for letting him go, it was a gamble to either keep or release. It always is. Most of the time it works out and we realise that we've released, at best, average players. There's always going to be one where you wish you'd kept him. And that's not just Bolton's youth setup either. Need I remind you of how little Gary Cahill played for Aston Villa before we splashed on him? Or how we took Mark Davies from being loaned out to Leicester. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Globetrotter Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 (edited) "The whole set-up appears to be haphazard and poorly run. As I said, a real business person would not let the current situation continue for long. Sometimes ex-footballers are the worst people to be involved in the running of a club and I would suggest that Jimmy Phillips, et al are good examples of the wrong sort of selection/promotion" Maybe we should ask Alan Sugar if he is prepared to give it a go? Edited January 18, 2012 by Globetrotter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonk Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 The whole set-up appears to be haphazard and poorly run. As I said, a real business person would not let the current situation continue for long. Sometimes ex-footballers are the worst people to be involved in the running of a club and I would suggest that Jimmy Phillips, et al are good examples of the wrong sort of selection/promotion. Maybe we should ask Alan Sugar if he is prepared to give it a go? Do you think it'e wrong now, or was wrong 5 years ago? When do you think the club realised and adrressed the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter superjohnmcginlay Posted January 18, 2012 Author Site Supporter Share Posted January 18, 2012 Do you think it'e wrong now, or was wrong 5 years ago? When do you think the club realised and adrressed the situation. It was wrong they have no addressed it, your spot on. regarding the youth system heard an interview with a fella on H & J on Talksport on friday reagrding the youth. Lawrie McMenemy started this set up years ago which now the results are being seen it doesnt happen over night. As a brief aside did you see that chelski had signed three brothers from luton town aged about 12? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Globetrotter Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I'm not sure if that is addressed at me, the bulk of my post is actually a comment from another poster but I see as usual my technical skills have let me down and it looks like my quote ... FWIW my thoughts; First of all asking a businessman to oversee and make the decision on which players stay to be developed and which are released is ludicrous, I assume the comment was made Tongue in cheek ..These successful academies are usually overseen by seasoned professionals who focus on youth development as a career, not the first step of a coaching career. I don't know what Jimmy Pip's aspirations or skills are but this for me is a quick win for the club. For the money spent on a fringe player, ?1m per year, I am sure we can attract a top level professional to oversee the development of the youth players etc. I have actually heard good stories about the set up at Bolton and ED has invested in the new facilities etc so now we maybe need one of the top level Academy Directors to finish the job off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tylswhite Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I'm not sure if that is addressed at me, the bulk of my post is actually a comment from another poster but I see as usual my technical skills have let me down and it looks like my quote ... FWIW my thoughts; First of all asking a businessman to oversee and make the decision on which players stay to be developed and which are released is ludicrous, I assume the comment was made Tongue in cheek ..These successful academies are usually overseen by seasoned professionals who focus on youth development as a career, not the first step of a coaching career. I don't know what Jimmy Pip's aspirations or skills are but this for me is a quick win for the club. For the money spent on a fringe player, ?1m per year, I am sure we can attract a top level professional to oversee the development of the youth players etc. I have actually heard good stories about the set up at Bolton and ED has invested in the new facilities etc so now we maybe need one of the top level Academy Directors to finish the job off. You say youth academies are usually overseen by seasoned pros who focus on youth development as a career, not the first step of a coaching career then you go on to say you dont know what Jimmy Phillips aspirations are which totally contradicts yourself. How do you know he isnt focusing his career on youth coaching? because thats all hes ever done and IIRC he has got all his badges etc so he is as qualified as anybody else. Nearly all the academies ive been to they all seem to have ex pros like Jimmy Phillips doing the coaching & overseeing so i dont know where these top level ?1m pros come from that you mention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwetter2 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I'm not sure if that is addressed at me, the bulk of my post is actually a comment from another poster but I see as usual my technical skills have let me down and it looks like my quote ... FWIW my thoughts; First of all asking a businessman to oversee and make the decision on which players stay to be developed and which are released is ludicrous, I assume the comment was made Tongue in cheek ..These successful academies are usually overseen by seasoned professionals who focus on youth development as a career, not the first step of a coaching career. I don't know what Jimmy Pip's aspirations or skills are but this for me is a quick win for the club. For the money spent on a fringe player, ?1m per year, I am sure we can attract a top level professional to oversee the development of the youth players etc. I have actually heard good stories about the set up at Bolton and ED has invested in the new facilities etc so now we maybe need one of the top level Academy Directors to finish the job off. I made the quote for which you were misquoted..... Regarding the use of any old ex-pro as the head of an academy, then I have severe misgivings about their ability to think through their decisions in a clear-headed manner. I was not advocating bringing in a person with no knowledge of football or youth development in football to run an academy but I am a firm believer in making sure that the correct person is selected. This would imply they would also have a knowledge of modern management, goal setting and training. It should be all about outcomes and getting the best return for money invested. We have one or two ex-academy players at the moment (and a few in the academy system at the moment) that we paid significant sums for when they were poached from their original clubs. Are we going to see anything from them? I am not hopeful that Connolly, as an example, will be judged to be good enough for the first team and we paid a bundle to the fake Wanderers for him. What does our academy coaching do to young players who were supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread before they arrived? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tylswhite Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I made the quote for which you were misquoted..... Regarding the use of any old ex-pro as the head of an academy, then I have severe misgivings about their ability to think through their decisions in a clear-headed manner. I was not advocating bringing in a person with no knowledge of football or youth development in football to run an academy but I am a firm believer in making sure that the correct person is selected. This would imply they would also have a knowledge of modern management, goal setting and training. It should be all about outcomes and getting the best return for money invested. We have one or two ex-academy players at the moment (and a few in the academy system at the moment) that we paid significant sums for when they were poached from their original clubs. Are we going to see anything from them? I am not hopeful that Connolly, as an example, will be judged to be good enough for the first team and we paid a bundle to the fake Wanderers for him. What does our academy coaching do to young players who were supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread before they arrived? Lets be honest, if they are the best thing since sliced bread then they arent gonna be coming to Boltons academy, they will be off to the big boys. These players that we poached were probably classed as decent prospects which had a chance of making it at our level imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank_spencer Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I made the quote for which you were misquoted..... Regarding the use of any old ex-pro as the head of an academy, then I have severe misgivings about their ability to think through their decisions in a clear-headed manner. I was not advocating bringing in a person with no knowledge of football or youth development in football to run an academy but I am a firm believer in making sure that the correct person is selected. This would imply they would also have a knowledge of modern management, goal setting and training. It should be all about outcomes and getting the best return for money invested. We have one or two ex-academy players at the moment (and a few in the academy system at the moment) that we paid significant sums for when they were poached from their original clubs. Are we going to see anything from them? I am not hopeful that Connolly, as an example, will be judged to be good enough for the first team and we paid a bundle to the fake Wanderers for him. What does our academy coaching do to young players who were supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread before they arrived? How many players do united etc let fall by the wayside? just because someone is the best of their age range doenst mean they'll develop into great players. when the Wright-Phillips brothers were signed by Citeh Bradley was a better prospect than Shaun, and SWP was only brought in to help his brother settle in. John O'Shea was supposedly going to be the best player united had ever brought through and he's ended up being no more than decent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MalcolmW Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Might be worth comparing the clubs competing in our local catchment area with the clubs Southampton are competing with before we go overboard with the comparisons. We haven't had anywhere near as many through as we should have done, but hopefully that will turn around now we are throwing more resources at it This is a key point. ManU have been complaining about the current distance restrictions on academy recruitment at young ages. Their catchment area is almost identical to Bolton's, but at least 99%, given a free choice, will not choose Bolton over them. Once they are free to go much further afield, provided there is a limit on overall numbers, Bolton can pick up more relative locals. Southampton's geographical location means they are the major club over a wide area (though less densely populated). But it is simplistic, to say the least, to regard ultimate ability as being discernable at age 15, let alone 8, It isn't true in football or any other sport, or even most areas of life, including business. Alan Sugar has tasted football before. And he said "never again". Why not recruit the MD of a localish business trading worldwide who has a real interest in football? OMG that's just what the club did. In my age year at school there was a lad whose only noteworthy achievement was starring in the annual Gilbert & Sullivan productions. He left at 16 with 3 'o' Levels (Eng. Lang, Eng. Lit. & History). If you had asked anyone if he was going to make a mark in life they would have said something like "Maybe on the stage - otherwise no". Actually he became a local journalist, then onto Fleet Street, and eventually editor of the "Dailly Mirror". He now lives in a Northumberland mansion, and is semi-retired, but I sometimes hear him on Radio 5Live commenting on newspapers. The mark of success, long term, of a football academy is to bring through to first team standard an average of 1 player a year. So far Bolton has fallen well short of that, I think we can agree. The Premier League is not a standard where young players can be trialled on a regular basis, so loaning out appropriately is a major factor. Riley has been fortunate to get an opportunity to appear and has certainly taken it well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwetter2 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 How many players do united etc let fall by the wayside? just because someone is the best of their age range doenst mean they'll develop into great players. when the Wright-Phillips brothers were signed by Citeh Bradley was a better prospect than Shaun, and SWP was only brought in to help his brother settle in. John O'Shea was supposedly going to be the best player united had ever brought through and he's ended up being no more than decent. Look, I agree that it is all relative. ManU can afford to have disappointments from their youth system, indeed it hasn't mattered to them that they have been quite wasteful. We can't afford to be wasteful. If you don't think that more science/rigorous monitoring should be applied to what happens at our academy, fine. I just happen to think that if each academy player is carefully assessed every month, then it is unlikely that there would be a need for waste because the early developer ones who have reached their limit would be out earlier. The late developers....maybe Fojut falls into that category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Zico Posted January 18, 2012 Moderators Share Posted January 18, 2012 I'm obviously mistaken. I thought he moved to Legia Warsaw. My point still holds true - BWFC have had quite a number of young players over the years who have moved on to decent careers for nowt. I am convinced we have a bunch of useless numpties running the club. Most seasoned businessmen would not let things get to the state where investments in potentially valuable assets are allowed to go for no return. What I mean by that is that very regular close and careful monitoring of the investments in the academy should lead to the early release of players who are not meeting a pre-set agreed set of achievements. The ones who do meet the levels required must get some first team exposure - even in the "Barclays Premier League." I think what you just described is already in place, have no reason to think otherwise joe riley is getting 1st team action, other reserves featured last night danny ward was sold for a decent fee players who aren't considered good enough are let go, in some cases it made be their release that makes them work harder at their next club and do well it happens to every club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyoneawalker Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I think coyle earmarked a serious improvement in the academy set up when he first came in and charged Phillips Lee Kelly with getting it right - when he talks about the owner and chairman understanding his vision for the club and the work he has done at the club he is pinpointing the youth setup as key - it doesn't take a brain surgeon to work out that the less we have in transfers and wages the more reliant we will be on youth and equally it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out it isn't a quick fix - under megson the youth set up was disregarded but he had other priorities like dealing with the 1st team chaos Sammy Lee left behind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tylswhite Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Look, I agree that it is all relative. ManU can afford to have disappointments from their youth system, indeed it hasn't mattered to them that they have been quite wasteful. We can't afford to be wasteful. If you don't think that more science/rigorous monitoring should be applied to what happens at our academy, fine. I just happen to think that if each academy player is carefully assessed every month, then it is unlikely that there would be a need for waste because the early developer ones who have reached their limit would be out earlier. The late developers....maybe Fojut falls into that category. All this stuff you mention is all in place as it is. My cousin plays for the u14s and he gets regularly reviewed, asessed and told where he needs to improve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.