Politics

[Jol_BWFC]

26 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

Bollocks. Again. 

It’s the treacherous CUNTS who have and continue to refuse to vote for any deal that have and continue to cause this. Simple

lib undems, snp and the majority of Labour to the front of the queue 

I’ve genuinely found your posts on this forum (especially the take over thread) to be well-reasoned, insightful and interesting. This thread seems to be dragging you down. The post above could have been written by Bolty. 

[Escobarp]

10 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

No. A General Election is fought on the spin of the media - and I don't think its ever a good barometer. You have Labour, Lib Dems, Greens, SNP, Plaid - all to one extent or another "remain" - and on the leave side you have the Tories and possibly the Brexit party. 

I suspect if you total all the votes up from one side and another they won't be a million miles apart. I expect the Tories to win - but I also think were there to be a 2nd referendum remain would have a very good chance of winning that. I also think were Starmer Labour leader - Boris wouldn't even think about pushing for an election. 

Particular political circumstances of a GE - do not reflect the wider public view. For very obvious reasons. Labour will struggle because people like me won't vote for them even in a marginal seat - not whilst Corbyn and his hidden cronies loiter. So my vote will be lost "seats wise". It won't count for a thing. 

If the Tories poll over 50% of the popular vote then I will accept I'm in the minority. It won't change my opinion though. 

Same as if over 50% voted to leave in 2016 correct?

[Escobarp]

Just now, Jol_BWFC said:

I’ve genuinely found your posts on this forum (especially the take over thread) to be well-reasoned, insightful and interesting. This thread seems to be dragging you down. The post above could have been written by Bolty. 

Im sick to death of the blame switching from may to Johnson back to May over to Cameron back to May to Johnson if I’m honest Jol. 

none of us could ever have imagined the political game playing total shit storm we find ourselves currently in Which is hurting every single one of us. But to sit and watch what I perceive to be a blatant obstruction and disregard for the 2016 vote by a number of sitting MP’s because they disagree with the outcome is absolutely scandalous and unforgivable in my opinion and to have this endorsed as acceptable by people on here and in life in general just beggars belief.

And then to have people park the blame bus at the Tory party is again nonsensical to me. The rhetoric coming out now is that mays deal was “ok” and the best we were going to get. So why didn’t we sign up for it? and we could have been moved on with this and who knows maybe realise it isn’t what we had hoped for and then look to change again in the future. instead  we are stuck in ground hog day and the first signs we have of somebody (Boris) that wants to move this along and get it done and there is continued uproar and people marching round London singing songs about shame! it’s tragic  

I don’t agree with what he is doing in some ways but in other ways I sympathize with him as I did with Teresa May and it is now becoming a necessity for them to adopt this mentality as I’m sick and tired of this and want to be able to look forward, get on with my job knowing how the company that I work for plans to deal with matters and just enjoy my life and as I’ve always done made the most of the hand that I’ve been dealt through hard work, grit and endeavor. 

I’ve said it before and will say it again all of our MP’s in the main should be ashamed. They are employed to serve the people not become self serving egotistical wankers which is undoubtedly what they’ve become. 

Apologies if my posts have become impassioned

[ZiggyStardust]

10 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

Im sick to death of the blame switching from may to Johnson back to May over to Cameron back to May to Johnson if I’m honest Jol. 

none of us could ever have imagined the political game playing total shit storm we find ourselves currently in Which is hurting every single one of us. But to sit and watch what I perceive to be a blatant obstruction and disregard for the 2016 vote by a number of sitting MP’s because they disagree with the outcome is absolutely scandalous and unforgivable in my opinion and to have this endorsed as acceptable by people on here and in life in general just beggars belief.

And then to have people park the blame bus at the Tory party is again nonsensical to me. The rhetoric coming out now is that mays deal was “ok” and the best we were going to get. So why didn’t we sign up for it? and we could have been moved on with this and who knows maybe realise it isn’t what we had hoped for and then look to change again in the future. instead  we are stuck in ground hog day and the first signs we have of somebody (Boris) that wants to move this along and get it done and there is continued uproar and people marching round London singing songs about shame! it’s tragic  

I don’t agree with what he is doing in some ways but in other ways I sympathize with him as I did with Teresa May and it is now becoming a necessity for them to adopt this mentality as I’m sick and tired of this and want to be able to look forward, get on with my job knowing how the company that I work for plans to deal with matters and just enjoy my life and as I’ve always done made the most of the hand that I’ve been dealt through hard work, grit and endeavor. 

I’ve said it before and will say it again all of our MP’s in the main should be ashamed. They are employed to serve the people not become self serving egotistical wankers which is undoubtedly what they’ve become. 

Apologies if my posts have become impassioned

Bravo, Sir.

[bwfcfan5]

21 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

Same as if over 50% voted to leave in 2016 correct?

I accepted the result. The problem has been since then the offer of what would happen has been very different from the promise of the vote. 

I'd have been totally in favour of initially becoming SM and CU members to honour the  result - and then deciding further from there. I said that years ago and not just now.

What I struggle with is honouring the referendum result by giving ourselves a bloody nose or worse. That to me is madness. That's my view and I accept the other argument. But I don't agree with it.

Hence why I support what MPs who also take that view say. And you see it the other way.

My point really is - there was a chance to find a middle position that was wasted. Whoever you blame or don't blame - the situation and divide isn't going to be resolved now whatever happens. Which is not a good place to be for anyone. 

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

It’s a big day for Bercow today who will pull his strings will it be his allies in the EU who I feel must be pushing for him to allow the vote on the deal or will it be the likes of Grieve and his bunch of anti brexiteers.  I’m not sure which way he will turn but suspect he won’t allow the vote and if he does that I suspect big trouble ahead for him and parliament. 

Personally, I’d be astonished if he didn’t allow a vote.

But, his antics have astonished me before.

I hope he keeps his word and quits on 31.10.19.

 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

2 minutes ago, boltondiver said:

Personally, I’d be astonished if he didn’t allow a vote.

But, his antics have astonished me before.

I hope he keeps his word and quits on 31.10.19.

 

MPs in the main saying he won't allow the vote.

Perhaps they would have been better off having the vote on Saturday: could then use it to illustrate to the EU the way the land lies and get a small extension to complete the legislation.

[bwfcfan5]

6 minutes ago, boltondiver said:

Personally, I’d be astonished if he didn’t allow a vote.

But, his antics have astonished me before.

I hope he keeps his word and quits on 31.10.19.

 

The rules very clearly do not allow the same motion to be placed again in the same session. This is just gamesplaying by the government who know this very well and just want to manipulate another "people vs parliament" lot of propaganda. 

 

[bwfcfan5]

1 minute ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

MPs in the main saying he won't allow the vote.

Perhaps they would have been better off having the vote on Saturday: could then use it to illustrate to the EU the way the land lies and get a small extension to complete the legislation.

They had the vote. The amended motion was approved by parliament. The vote was had. 

[Salford Trotter]

6 minutes ago, boltondiver said:

Personally, I’d be astonished if he didn’t allow a vote.

But, his antics have astonished me before.

I hope he keeps his word and quits on 31.10.19.

 

I'm not sure he can allow it. There has been a vote on the deal so does legislation not have to be passed first before another vote?

[Winchester White]

The thing is Escobarp, Labour wants a much softer Brexit.  Many Brexiters and Tories would cry it is BRINO and vote against.

I am tired of it all, I really am.

[Farrelli]

55 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

 

none of us could ever have imagined the political game playing total shit storm we find ourselves currently in Which is hurting every single one of us. But to sit and watch what I perceive to be a blatant obstruction and disregard for the 2016 vote by a number of sitting MP’s because they disagree with the outcome is absolutely scandalous and unforgivable in my opinion

But you have to look at why they are doing this, it's not just because they want to remain.  The fact is that the impacts and mechanism for leaving the EU was not properly scrutinised in the run up to the referendum and we are paying the price for that now.  MP's are doing their job and holding the government to account and I for one am very glad that they are. 

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

MPs in the main saying he won't allow the vote.

Perhaps they would have been better off having the vote on Saturday: could then use it to illustrate to the EU the way the land lies and get a small extension to complete the legislation.

I thought it strange, too

Gotta trust in Dom

[Escobarp]

4 minutes ago, Farrelli said:

But you have to look at why they are doing this, it's not just because they want to remain.  The fact is that the impacts and mechanism for leaving the EU was not properly scrutinised in the run up to the referendum and we are paying the price for that now.  MP's are doing their job and holding the government to account and I for one am very glad that they are. 

But in a lot of cases it’s exactly the fact they simply want to remain isn’t it. This is my issue

nonissue with any sitting government being held to account it’s how it should be. 

But a large number are not doing this. Is ian blackford and the other SNP mp’s Holding the government to account or simply being obstructive? In your opinion?

[bwfcfan5]

Just now, boltondiver said:

I thought it strange, too

Gotta trust in Dom

The motion was amended. And "nodded through". The government didn't pull the vote they just didn't put tellers up and effectively allowed it to be nodded through.

The reason they did that was because the vote was on the amended motion. They can't take the amendments out and vote on the original one. So in effect they concluded holding that vote was pointless. But the vote still happened - it was just nodded through. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

The motion was amended. And "nodded through". The government didn't pull the vote they just didn't put tellers up and effectively allowed it to be nodded through.

The reason they did that was because the vote was on the amended motion. They can't take the amendments out and vote on the original one. So in effect they concluded holding that vote was pointless. But the vote still happened - it was just nodded through. 

Bloody parliamentary procedures!

[bwfcfan5]

1 minute ago, boltondiver said:

Bloody parliamentary procedures!

Well yes. But lets not let the government play more games - there is no need. They need the legislation through anyway - and will get a positive vote on it. Their risk is support for amendments to that legislation - people seem to think this happens but I'm not so sure. There has never been a majority for a Customs union in a parliamentary vote (yes there is majority unwhipped support across the house for this) but to get a majority for such an amendment requires the Tory rebels (most of whom are backing the deal) to support it along with all of Labour (and we know several Labour MPs won't support a CU) plus the Lib Dems (who want to revoke) and the SNP (who want a 2nd referendum). 

Not sure that is happening TBH. But maybe I'm wrong and the political commentators are right. 

 

[Jol_BWFC]

1 hour ago, Escobarp said:

Im sick to death of the blame switching from may to Johnson back to May over to Cameron back to May to Johnson if I’m honest Jol. 

none of us could ever have imagined the political game playing total shit storm we find ourselves currently in Which is hurting every single one of us. But to sit and watch what I perceive to be a blatant obstruction and disregard for the 2016 vote by a number of sitting MP’s because they disagree with the outcome is absolutely scandalous and unforgivable in my opinion and to have this endorsed as acceptable by people on here and in life in general just beggars belief.

And then to have people park the blame bus at the Tory party is again nonsensical to me. The rhetoric coming out now is that mays deal was “ok” and the best we were going to get. So why didn’t we sign up for it? and we could have been moved on with this and who knows maybe realise it isn’t what we had hoped for and then look to change again in the future. instead  we are stuck in ground hog day and the first signs we have of somebody (Boris) that wants to move this along and get it done and there is continued uproar and people marching round London singing songs about shame! it’s tragic  

I don’t agree with what he is doing in some ways but in other ways I sympathize with him as I did with Teresa May and it is now becoming a necessity for them to adopt this mentality as I’m sick and tired of this and want to be able to look forward, get on with my job knowing how the company that I work for plans to deal with matters and just enjoy my life and as I’ve always done made the most of the hand that I’ve been dealt through hard work, grit and endeavor. 

I’ve said it before and will say it again all of our MP’s in the main should be ashamed. They are employed to serve the people not become self serving egotistical wankers which is undoubtedly what they’ve become. 

Apologies if my posts have become impassioned

No need to apologise at all (particularly for showing passion) and this is more of the stuff I like to read from you. Thanks. 
 

It is indeed a terrible mess and it needs to end. I too am sick of this dragging on and my work is suffering, which is never a good thing. The political blame game has made a tricky situation almost impossible. All parties should have sat down at the beginning and agreed a sensible approach to get this done. For various reasons, they didn’t. 

[Farrelli]

18 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

But in a lot of cases it’s exactly the fact they simply want to remain isn’t it. This is my issue

nonissue with any sitting government being held to account it’s how it should be. 

But a large number are not doing this. Is ian blackford and the other SNP mp’s Holding the government to account or simply being obstructive? In your opinion?

Well if the ERG and Boris himself had actually supported Theresa May's deal we could already be out. They are as much to blame for this situation as anyone, more in fact because of their lies during the campaign itself.

The SNP I have sympathy for because Scotland voted to remain in the EU by a large majority.  When Scotland had its own referendum to stay in the UK this result was based on being a member of the EU.  Therefore I think they are entitled to feel aggrieved, or be obstructive, whichever way you view it.

Quite simply, the wishes of Scotland and NI (IMO) are being completely ignored and that is not democracy. 

[Escobarp]

3 minutes ago, Jol_BWFC said:

No need to apologise at all (particularly for showing passion) and this is more of the stuff I like to read from you. Thanks. 
 

It is indeed a terrible mess and it needs to end. I too am sick of this dragging on and my work is suffering, which is never a good thing. The political blame game has made a tricky situation almost impossible. All parties should have sat down at the beginning and agreed a sensible approach to get this done. For various reasons, they didn’t. 

Completely agree. 

The thing is as well I’ve never had any interest in politics and this may surprise some people I’ve only ever voted 3 times in my life as I’m  sure most will have me pegged as a staunch right wing Tory  not the case  

two referendums and the last general election. And if the result of the referendum is honored and we leave the EU I will likely never vote again. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

11 minutes ago, boltondiver said:

Bloody parliamentary procedures!

Some mixed opinion on it all from commentators.

However, as several have pointed out, Bercow has made it clear, he believes strongly in trying to find a means for parliament to sort it, so he might therefore be minded to allow a vote. It's not as if he hasn't gone against convention previously.

Whatever happens with this, they might as well just be getting on with legislation.

One interesting point; if the legislation was ammended to include a a second referendum, wouldn't there be an election first?

That way labour would then be looking to renegotiate their deal, as often stated, before recommending rejecting it. (Thornberry).

The obvious thing there is, should Boris get a working majority, they could introduce fresh legislation, removing the second referendum, from the bill.

[Escobarp]

1 minute ago, Farrelli said:

Well if the ERG and Boris himself had actually supported Theresa May's deal we could already be out. They are as much to blame for this situation as anyone, more in fact because of their lies during the campaign itself.

The SNP I have sympathy for because Scotland voted to remain in the EU by a large majority.  When Scotland had its own referendum to stay in the UK this result was based on being a member of the EU.  Therefore I think they are entitled to feel aggrieved, or be obstructive, whichever way you view it.

Quite simply, the wishes of Scotland and NI (IMO) are being completely ignored and that is not democracy. 

And I asked the question yesterday which went unanswered. Strip out Scotland and Northern Ireland. Have an English vote. Would the remainers be so sure if a positive result then? I think not given that NI and Scotland made the vote much closer. 

[Farrelli]

2 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

And I asked the question yesterday which went unanswered. Strip out Scotland and Northern Ireland. Have an English vote. Would the remainers be so sure if a positive result then? I think not given that NI and Scotland made the vote much closer. 

And Wales ? If such a vote happened where does that actually get us though ? Are you suggesting that just England leaves the EU ?

[bwfcfan5]

Its important to remember too that should we leave with a deal we still are effectively in the EU till the end of the transition period in at end of 2020. During which time we'll have to negotiate another deal with the EU. The FTA Boris wants is highly, highly unlikely to transpire by the end of 2020. So what happens then? The idea that agreeing to a WA which merely outlines the next year or so and ensures we in effect stay in the EU (practically speaking) for that time - means this goes away - is for the birds.

The bigger questions are not answered by the WA and in fact the argument and discussion will simply go on. 

[Escobarp]

No I’m simply pointing out that for the arguement about Scotland and NI voting to stay in the EU this simply widens the GAp in the last vote between leave and remain in the UK

and missing wales out was just an error. 

People want to highlight repeatedly that Northern Ireland as Scotland voted to remain. I accept that. But this then further reinforces that England voted to leave. But that doesn’t seem to matter in amongst all the arguments why we should remain?

you cannot use a statistic to promote a view/argument and then ignore it when it doesn’t suit 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Escobarp