Politics

[Mounts Kipper]

6 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said:

Losing 5-7% of GDP is a victory and a cause for celebration🤔

https://www.ft.com/content/a6f991ba-eda8-11e9-bfa4-b25f11f42901

It’s bull shit. I’m more interested in the 3 points tonight,  you keep believing the fear.  👍

Edited October 22, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[leigh white]

[Salford Trotter]

4 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

It’s bull shit. I’m more interested in the 3 points tonight,  you keep believing the fear.  👍

So the FT detailed analysis from recognised experts v Prof Mounts "it's bullshit"🤣

You are a prize plum but we love you

[Mounts Kipper]

4 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said:

So the FT detailed analysis from recognised experts v Prof Mounts "it's bullshit"🤣

You are a prize plum but we love you

I’ll wait until I’m proven right, not a ducking chance on earth GDP will drop 5-7%, they really are prize plums, and worst of all you ducking believe them. 😂🤣😂

[Cheese]

This sums it all up really dunnit? 

"It's brilliant!" 

"Why?" 

"I don't know, but it is! " 

Edited October 22, 2019 by Cheese

[royal white]

15 minutes ago, Cheese said:

This sums it all up really dunnit? 

"It's brilliant!" 

"Why?" 

"I don't know, but it is! " 

No 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Boris now wants an election. When he has a Brexit deal a matter of a week or two away from getting through Parliament. So he will delay Brexit by months.

So Boris you aren’t getting it done. You are choosing dither and delay. Not sure people will understand that. Nor should they. Ken Clarke’s words played on repeat for weeks now. Boris stopped Brexit. 

Now that is nonsense

[Guest]

1 hour ago, boltondiver said:

Now that is nonsense

Is it? Tell me what amendment could have majority support and stop his deal? Only amendment that would win right now is one about delaying transition period if FTA not approved. But Boris could wave that through get the deal done and have an election where if he wins he can change that.

The so called wrecking amendments of the CU doesn’t have support from SNP or DUP not majority of ex Tories.

Second referendum doesn’t have ex Tory or DUP support nor 20 or so Labour backbenchers.

So, yes he can get the deal through in a matter of weeks. EU grant flextension. We could leave end of November or even earlier.

If he chooses not to it’s simply a political game. He’s holding Brexit up.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Is it? Tell me what amendment could have majority support and stop his deal? Only amendment that would win right now is one about delaying transition period if FTA not approved. But Boris could wave that through get the deal done and have an election where if he wins he can change that.

The so called wrecking amendments of the CU doesn’t have support from SNP or DUP not majority of ex Tories.

Second referendum doesn’t have ex Tory or DUP support nor 20 or so Labour backbenchers.

So, yes he can get the deal through in a matter of weeks. EU grant flextension. We could leave end of November or even earlier.

If he chooses not to it’s simply a political game. He’s holding Brexit up.

You make some fair points there.

But the wrecking and delaying is by others, who have had plenty of time to read the stuff, as most of it has been in front of them before.

In addition, even when ratified here, it will need to be ratified by the EU, which will take a couple of weeks.

Boris is trying to line up an election, let’s see if Corbyn has the bollocks for it. I rather suspect he hasn’t, in which case, Boris will “get Brexit done” over the next couple of weeks, but will pin the delay, correctly, on others.

in my view

[Guest]

1 hour ago, boltondiver said:

You make some fair points there.

But the wrecking and delaying is by others, who have had plenty of time to read the stuff, as most of it has been in front of them before.

In addition, even when ratified here, it will need to be ratified by the EU, which will take a couple of weeks.

Boris is trying to line up an election, let’s see if Corbyn has the bollocks for it. I rather suspect he hasn’t, in which case, Boris will “get Brexit done” over the next couple of weeks, but will pin the delay, correctly, on others.

in my view

That’s a political game. He is delaying Brexit by months to play it. 

Ken Clarke said he needed to offer 3 or 4 more days to get the ex Tories onside. Labour said 7-9.

So an extra week to get the bill through. For a bill that normally would take months. So use an extra week - if passage is blocked he can go GE. But if it isn’t we’d leave early to mid November.

Literally no reason other than Boris playing politics. He’s doing exactly what you’ve spent months saying others are. Holding up Brexit for his own political end.

[Salford Trotter]

9 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

That’s a political game. He is delaying Brexit by months to play it. 

Ken Clarke said he needed to offer 3 or 4 more days to get the ex Tories onside. Labour said 7-9.

So an extra week to get the bill through. For a bill that normally would take months. So use an extra week - if passage is blocked he can go GE. But if it isn’t we’d leave early to mid November.

Literally no reason other than Boris playing politics. He’s doing exactly what you’ve spent months saying others are. Holding up Brexit for his own political end.

Johnson has made mistake after mistake in this debacle. He should not have prorogued parliament; he should not have withdrawn the whip from the Tory rebels and he should have given parliament time to scrutinise the bill properly. I wonder who is advising him? Makes you wonder what other mistakes he will make in the coming weeks. 

[Escobarp]

14 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

That’s a political game. He is delaying Brexit by months to play it. 

Ken Clarke said he needed to offer 3 or 4 more days to get the ex Tories onside. Labour said 7-9.

So an extra week to get the bill through. For a bill that normally would take months. So use an extra week - if passage is blocked he can go GE. But if it isn’t we’d leave early to mid November.

Literally no reason other than Boris playing politics. He’s doing exactly what you’ve spent months saying others are. Holding up Brexit for his own political end.

I agree with you he is now holding it up for his political gain. He is using t wrongly in my opinion to further ram home the point but two wrongs don’t make a right 

He should have got on with it 

[Escobarp]

2 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said:

Johnson has made mistake after mistake in this debacle. He should not have prorogued parliament; he should not have withdrawn the whip from the Tory rebels and he should have given parliament time to scrutinise the bill properly. I wonder who is advising him? Makes you wonder what other mistakes he will make in the coming weeks. 

P they have had time. As has been pointed out by a lot of remainers on here and in the  media this is the same deal with a few tweaks. 

I would be very surprised if you honestly believed that a lot of the delays haven’t been game playing on the other side. 

Min teens of withdrawing the whip and the prorogation they are tools in his political box and entitled to use them. Albeit maybe not for as long as he intended

[Salford Trotter]

Just now, Escobarp said:

P they have had time. As has been pointed out by a lot of remainers on here and in the  media this is the same deal with a few tweaks. 

I would be very surprised if you honestly believed that a lot of the delays haven’t been game playing on the other side. 

Min teens of withdrawing the whip and the prorogation they are tools in his political box and entitled to use them. Albeit maybe not for as long as he intended

I honestly don't believe they were given enough time Stu, I mean do you seriously think 3 days is long enough to scrutinise the biggest bill that any of the these politicians will ever scrutinise in their careers? The crux of all of this is the advice he is being fed as I honestly believe Johnson has in the past shown to be a liberal conservative but with Cummings advising him he is making elementary and knee jerk decisions. Take a look at Hugo Dixon's tweet exposing some of the Johnson's misleading tactics

https://twitter.com/Hugodixon/status/1186894987176402945?s=20

[Escobarp]

1 minute ago, Salford Trotter said:

I honestly don't believe they were given enough time Stu, I mean do you seriously think 3 days is long enough to scrutinise the biggest bill that any of the these politicians will ever scrutinise in their careers? The crux of all of this is the advice he is being fed as I honestly believe Johnson has in the past shown to be a liberal conservative but with Cummings advising him he is making elementary and knee jerk decisions. Take a look at Hugo Dixon's tweet exposing some of the Johnson's misleading tactics

https://twitter.com/Hugodixon/status/1186894987176402945?s=20

I’m in no way saying that Boris doesn’t say stuff and essentially lie. Is that prime minister material? No. But I believe at the moment with the current political landscape only one sort of person is going to win the wars and it’s somebody of this ilk. The more conventional politicians will be swallowed up and are being done so. 

This isn’t normal politics. Just look at the leader of the opposition. Is that normal?

snp we’re going to bring back holyrood from recess early tomorrow. Reason? To debate the new bill? Nope. To vote it down and push for second referendum. Surely it would need to be scrutinized first before saying no? Although Corbyn set the precedent there by declaring a bad deal and wouldn’t be voted for before he had even seen it. 

terrible terrible times 

[Guest]

Not enough time?

Did anyone else notice that Labour ran out of people yesterday?

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

I agree with you he is now holding it up for his political gain. He is using t wrongly in my opinion to further ram home the point but two wrongs don’t make a right 

He should have got on with it 

Agreed. The experts in legislation - all were unanimous in saying 3 days was absurd and impossible to determine the implications of something so utterly complex. Those people aren't trying to hold Brexit up - merely people with experience of writing and passing legislation. 

The absurdity was Tory MPs saying they thought it was a bad deal, bad for the economy, and they hadn't really read it - but they'd vote for it anyway. What confidence does that give anyone in the public?

However the point is were MPs demanding 3 months to scrutinise it I think Boris had a point. But when even the opposition wanted a week extra its somewhat ridiculous to pause it. Even Labour said he could have kept it going to see if he could get it over the line. The ironic thing is that he got a bigger majority for the deal than people expected - yes a few would have dropped away but there wasn't enough support for any amendment that would have "wrecked it". It would have been amended to try and prevent us leaving in 2020 with no deal - sure. And there might have been some amendments on workers rights and environmental standards. But unlikely to be anything that Boris and his party couldn't have lived with at least till a GE. 

[Moon boy]

33 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

That’s a political game. He is delaying Brexit by months to play it. 

Ken Clarke said he needed to offer 3 or 4 more days to get the ex Tories onside. Labour said 7-9.

So an extra week to get the bill through. For a bill that normally would take months. So use an extra week - if passage is blocked he can go GE. But if it isn’t we’d leave early to mid November.

Literally no reason other than Boris playing politics. He’s doing exactly what you’ve spent months saying others are. Holding up Brexit for his own political end.

Boris set a date, October 31st, to leave the EU, he said that 8weeks ago, the Remainers set their stall out to stop him and humiliate him, in the main they accepted the need to accept his deal and actually voted for it last night, by the way it had a majority of 30 yes 30, but in the second vote they still tried to humiliate him, childish politics, he said he’d ‘die in a ditch’ blah bla

Straight after the vote good old Ken Clarke was offering an olive branch of a few more days, Corbyn offered a bit more time even the DUP felt if they had a chat they might be able to influence the situation but because of spiteful childish politicians that boat has now sailed

 As the great broadcaster Paddy Mcguiness says ‘Boris, the power is now with you’

[Guest]

As 5 has said repeatedly, he needs the numbers.

Not just now, but to progress Brexit (and other legislation) to completion.

Lets hope he gets a GE and then hope he secures a majority.

poll this morning says 12% ahead

[Salford Trotter]

14 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

I’m in no way saying that Boris doesn’t say stuff and essentially lie. Is that prime minister material? No. But I believe at the moment with the current political landscape only one sort of person is going to win the wars and it’s somebody of this ilk. The more conventional politicians will be swallowed up and are being done so. 

This isn’t normal politics. Just look at the leader of the opposition. Is that normal?

snp we’re going to bring back holyrood from recess early tomorrow. Reason? To debate the new bill? Nope. To vote it down and push for second referendum. Surely it would need to be scrutinized first before saying no? Although Corbyn set the precedent there by declaring a bad deal and wouldn’t be voted for before he had even seen it. 

terrible terrible times 

We are in unprecedented times, both politically and economically, for sure which will make for a bumpy ride. I genuinely believe we are making the wrong decision however I accept the will of the people was for us to leave. That doesn't mean we should leave at any cost and damage the economy just so we can deliver the result of the referendum. No one voted to harm the economy and to say any different is just crass so let's scrutinise, amend if necessary and leave in an orderly way as possible. 

I do hope Johnson is not playing games with the UK and all of this postering is a ruse to leave without a deal at the end of 2020. Realistically we will need a 2/3 year transition to get a fair FTA so let's give our team time to do that. 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

Boris set a date, October 31st, to leave the EU, he said that 8weeks ago, the Remainers set their stall out to stop him and humiliate him, in the main they accepted the need to accept his deal and actually voted for it last night, by the way it had a majority of 30 yes 30, but in the second vote they still tried to humiliate him, childish politics, he said he’d ‘die in a ditch’ blah bla

Straight after the vote good old Ken Clarke was offering an olive branch of a few more days, Corbyn offered a bit more time even the DUP felt if they had a chat they might be able to influence the situation but because of spiteful childish politicians that boat has now sailed

 As the great broadcaster Paddy Mcguiness says ‘Boris, the power is now with you’

The date was set by the EU - but regardless Boris didn't bother seriously negotiating for a deal till a few weeks before that date. And he then brought a bill back a week and a bit ahead of it. A bill that he knows (his own legislative advisor told him btw) would take - if rushed - 3 or 4 weeks. That's not anyone else's fault but his. 

However, in spite of MPs all around thinking its not a great deal they actually voted to support it. And were asking for what - 7 extra days to do so. We weren't leaving on 31st October EVEN IF Boris got his timetable through because the Lords still would likely have delayed it and the European parliament would still needed to have time to consider it. 

So - what he's done is chosen to delay Brexit. His choice. Nobody else's. That is a fact. If he'd spent a week he may well have got the legislation through - likelihood was on his side. And if he didn't he could have a GE then. It wouldn't have changed anything - but he's chosen to simply delay it all for months. 

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

I’m in no way saying that Boris doesn’t say stuff and essentially lie. Is that prime minister material? No. But I believe at the moment with the current political landscape only one sort of person is going to win the wars and it’s somebody of this ilk. The more conventional politicians will be swallowed up and are being done so. 

This isn’t normal politics. Just look at the leader of the opposition. Is that normal?

snp we’re going to bring back holyrood from recess early tomorrow. Reason? To debate the new bill? Nope. To vote it down and push for second referendum. Surely it would need to be scrutinized first before saying no? Although Corbyn set the precedent there by declaring a bad deal and wouldn’t be voted for before he had even seen it. 

terrible terrible times 

We've lurched to unpleasant extremes that is for sure. I don't think that is a "product of the times" so much as a result of both main parties finding particular agendas took them over more or less at the same time. The Tories it was Brexit, Labour it was austerity and inequality. Both issues a response/result of a global economic disaster in the previous decade. Usually such widespread financial crashes lead to some sort of move towards the extremities of politics. 

However, I also believe that like in the USA the volume of news acting as pseudo political spin and propaganda is rising to an alarming level. See Peter Oborne's piece yesterday. This is not good - and not good for the future. We really have to stop ourselves becoming the USA and finding it acceptable for the government of the time, whoever the are to completely control the narrative. This started under Blair but is becoming worse - and its a slippery slope its hard to get off. 

[Moon boy]

11 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

The date was set by the EU - but regardless Boris didn't bother seriously negotiating for a deal till a few weeks before that date. And he then brought a bill back a week and a bit ahead of it. A bill that he knows (his own legislative advisor told him btw) would take - if rushed - 3 or 4 weeks. That's not anyone else's fault but his. 

However, in spite of MPs all around thinking its not a great deal they actually voted to support it. And were asking for what - 7 extra days to do so. We weren't leaving on 31st October EVEN IF Boris got his timetable through because the Lords still would likely have delayed it and the European parliament would still needed to have time to consider it. 

So - what he's done is chosen to delay Brexit. His choice. Nobody else's. That is a fact. If he'd spent a week he may well have got the legislation through - likelihood was on his side. And if he didn't he could have a GE then. It wouldn't have changed anything - but he's chosen to simply delay it all for months. 

That scenario only exists in your head

[Mounts Kipper]

7 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

We've lurched to unpleasant extremes that is for sure. I don't think that is a "product of the times" so much as a result of both main parties finding particular agendas took them over more or less at the same time. The Tories it was Brexit, Labour it was austerity and inequality. Both issues a response/result of a global economic disaster in the previous decade. Usually such widespread financial crashes lead to some sort of move towards the extremities of politics. 

However, I also believe that like in the USA the volume of news acting as pseudo political spin and propaganda is rising to an alarming level. See Peter Oborne's piece yesterday. This is not good - and not good for the future. We really have to stop ourselves becoming the USA and finding it acceptable for the government of the time, whoever the are to completely control the narrative. This started under Blair but is becoming worse - and its a slippery slope its hard to get off. 

On this we agree. 

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

That scenario only exists in your head

It isn't a scenario. Its simply the reality of the position.