Guest Posted July 31, 2019 Posted July 31, 2019 13 hours ago, Not in Crawley said: Brexit has never really been about leaving the EU, despite what it says on any bus side. It’s about ideology, about people who have felt marginalised by liberal internationalism that has left communities feeling unrepresented and without a voice. Thats the genius of Cummings - he saw and exploited what the MPs he despises on both sides couldn’t. Economic arguments count for naught (who really understands them?) and the only people talking about them were the very people people in leave hotbeds hated for trying to tell them ‘what they should think’ Take back control. From what? Who really knew or for that matter even cared? This is about the invisible enemy that has seen industrial strategy change, jobs walk out of towns across England and only city based Elites benefitted. This was a vote 30 or more years in the making and the EU gave us something to pin it on. Thats why it’d be a close run thing again, it’s not a political question of being part of the European Union, at its heart it’s the question of personal and regional identity wrapped up in the tissue paper flag nationhood and what it means on a personal level. It’s nostalgic, It’s the voice of people who haven’t been listened to, it’s not something that can be engaged with on normal debating terms (as this thread shows) and whatever it means, the ramifications will be felt long after most of us are dead and buried. Its a good post - the referendum was a symptom of our society and not of the EU. And yes Cummings who absolutely despises the ERG realised that it wasn't about the EU - because frankly most people don't care - it was about saying "lets roll the clock back to the 50's" and making people believe that the only barrier to doing that was leaving the EU. The irony is that this was all started by Thatcher - she left working class communities to die and was cheered on by some in those communities. The start of neoliberal politics was Thatcher and everything since has been an attempt to refine but not dismantle her work. Quote
kent_white Posted July 31, 2019 Posted July 31, 2019 5 hours ago, bolty58 said: Give it a rest comrade. When you are starting from a base as low as most of those, hardly a resounding vote of confidence in your rejected side of politics is it? "Libya now has 117.8% of fuck all". Wow. Which is indirectly the point I was trying to make. Pointing to lower growth rates in rich countries like the UK, Germany and France and trying lay it squarely at the feet of the EU misses the point. Quote
Tonge moor green jacket Posted July 31, 2019 Posted July 31, 2019 23 minutes ago, kent_white said: Which is indirectly the point I was trying to make. Pointing to lower growth rates in rich countries like the UK, Germany and France and trying lay it squarely at the feet of the EU misses the point. Nah. The economic argument for or against the EU can only be made by comparing those nations in it or nearby and not. Can't compare with nations such as Libya. If your generalising to the point of saying Europe is much of a muchness irrespective of whether they're in or not (which is true) then the argument for having a secondary level of governance beyond individual governments, doesn't look so good. Particularly as it costs some of the nation's rather a lot of money to do so. Let business use that money to invest directly in weaker countries, without the need for a gravy train for an unnecessarily large group of non productive folk. Quote
Not in Crawley Posted July 31, 2019 Posted July 31, 2019 2 hours ago, bwfcfan5 said: Its a good post - the referendum was a symptom of our society and not of the EU. And yes Cummings who absolutely despises the ERG realised that it wasn't about the EU - because frankly most people don't care - it was about saying "lets roll the clock back to the 50's" and making people believe that the only barrier to doing that was leaving the EU. The irony is that this was all started by Thatcher - she left working class communities to die and was cheered on by some in those communities. The start of neoliberal politics was Thatcher and everything since has been an attempt to refine but not dismantle her work. I think it’s one of the main frustrations, discussing the EU really misses the point of what this vote was about and why as a country we’re struggling to reconcile its impact. It’s why no amount of facts will turn anyone’s mind against their views and ultimately why it descends into the oversimplification of win/lose. Everyone suddenly seems to understand international money markets and world trade agreements. I’ve got a sneaking suspicion that most people haven’t just signed up to an undergrad Economics course in the last three years and so misinformation flourishes. Cummings hates all mps, interesting quote from his old Oxford tutor about him a Boris and the Don describes Cummings as a ‘different class’ intellectually. Quote
Guest Posted July 31, 2019 Posted July 31, 2019 12 minutes ago, Not in Crawley said: I think it’s one of the main frustrations, discussing the EU really misses the point of what this vote was about and why as a country we’re struggling to reconcile its impact. It’s why no amount of facts will turn anyone’s mind against their views and ultimately why it descends into the oversimplification of win/lose. Everyone suddenly seems to understand international money markets and world trade agreements. I’ve got a sneaking suspicion that most people haven’t just signed up to an undergrad Economics course in the last three years and so misinformation flourishes. Cummings hates all mps, interesting quote from his old Oxford tutor about him a Boris and the Don describes Cummings as a ‘different class’ intellectually. Yep its identity politics. If you have a degree and accept that the expert bodies who predict poor things with Brexit and generally think multiculturalism and liberal values are a good thing you are a remainer. Even if many of those accept that the EU is in no way a perfect institution. If you're in a working class community and feel you've been lied to and let down by the government and establishment for decades and therefore don't accept anything the expert bodies say and just want to go back to some idealised and unreal version of Britain from the 1950s when you lived in a community of people all the same as you and accepted your status but were always in work and never in real trouble - then you want Brexit. But to me there is an undercurrent of nationalism thrown in. Which as it happens also appeals more to the second group of people. What is somewhat ironic to me is that the second group of people you've also been brainwashed into hating the one politician who actually would do something for you - however terrible he is - which makes me laugh a little sometimes. And those in the first group also dislike him because he's actually from the second group in reality - yet the second group think he's in the top group. What a mess. Quote
miamiwhite Posted July 31, 2019 Author Posted July 31, 2019 5 hours ago, bwfcfan5 said: Yep its identity politics. If you have a degree and accept that the expert bodies who predict poor things with Brexit and generally think multiculturalism and liberal values are a good thing you are a remainer. Even if many of those accept that the EU is in no way a perfect institution. If you're in a working class community and feel you've been lied to and let down by the government and establishment for decades and therefore don't accept anything the expert bodies say and just want to go back to some idealised and unreal version of Britain from the 1950s when you lived in a community of people all the same as you and accepted your status but were always in work and never in real trouble - then you want Brexit. But to me there is an undercurrent of nationalism thrown in. Which as it happens also appeals more to the second group of people. What is somewhat ironic to me is that the second group of people you've also been brainwashed into hating the one politician who actually would do something for you - however terrible he is - which makes me laugh a little sometimes. And those in the first group also dislike him because he's actually from the second group in reality - yet the second group think he's in the top group. What a mess. So then, there’s not a single person amongst the 17.4 million who has a degree then ? The 31% of BAME voters who voted Leave don’t believe in multiculturalism then do they ? Brainwashed into hating Corbyn ? No, he’s a cunt full stop. It’s the brainwashed mugs who vote for him, without realising how dangerous his politics are. Enjoy your patronising echo chamber with NiC, you two are the experts in that department. Quote
paulhanley Posted July 31, 2019 Posted July 31, 2019 39 minutes ago, miamiwhite said: So then, there’s not a single person amongst the 17.4 million who has a degree then ? The 31% of BAME voters who voted Leave don’t believe in multiculturalism then do they ? Brainwashed into hating Corbyn ? No, he’s a cunt full stop. It’s the brainwashed mugs who vote for him, without realising how dangerous his politics are. Enjoy your patronising echo chamber with NiC, you two are the experts in that department. Bloody good answer that. Love muddying the waters don't they. They over complicate the reasons people voted for Brexit for the same reason they over complicate everything else. Because by doing that you can claim expertise and try to undermine/put distance between the present and the fact that the referendum delivered a clear outcome. Not the one they wanted! Anything to avoid having to talk about how the EU is completely undemocratic, how it has a moribund currency (yes the very one some of them actually wanted us to join .... something they really don't like to reminded about) and how its deeply ingrained federalisation/centralisation culture is going to lead Europe exactly the same way as that failed currency has gone. Do any of these remainers still want us to join the Euro? If not, why not? Simples: Belief in the nation state as the upper limit of democracy, belief that power should be as close to the people as possible and a belief that economically we will be better off free of the EUs strangling regulation leaving us to manage our economy nimbly/deftly/with alacrity, making decisions to suit our own needs and wants at any given time. As opposed to being subject to the hidebound EU clunking around like Trevor Morgan on a bad Saturday afternoon in 1988. I can see some of what Not in Crawley is driving at in his original post but bwfcfan 5s "Symptom of our society" cobblers is snowflakey undergraduate essay tosh. All it does is illustrate just how far some remainers still are from grasping what's wrong with the EU. Quote
Farrelli Posted July 31, 2019 Posted July 31, 2019 Ooh! Comparing the EU to Trevor Morgan, now that is a low blow. Quote
miamiwhite Posted July 31, 2019 Author Posted July 31, 2019 17 minutes ago, paulhanley said: Bloody good answer that. Love muddying the waters don't they. They over complicate the reasons people voted for Brexit for the same reason they over complicate everything else. Because by doing that you can claim expertise and try to undermine/put distance between the present and the fact that the referendum delivered a clear outcome. Not the one they wanted! Anything to avoid having to talk about how the EU is completely undemocratic, how it has a moribund currency (yes the very one some of them actually wanted us to join .... something they really don't like to reminded about) and how its deeply ingrained federalisation/centralisation culture is going to lead Europe exactly the same way as that failed currency has gone. Do any of these remainers still want us to join the Euro? If not, why not? Simples: Belief in the nation state as the upper limit of democracy, belief that power should be as close to the people as possible and a belief that economically we will be better off free of the EUs strangling regulation leaving us to manage our economy nimbly/deftly/with alacrity, making decisions to suit our own needs and wants at any given time. As opposed to being subject to the hidebound EU clunking around like Trevor Morgan on a bad Saturday afternoon in 1988. I can see some of what Not in Crawley is driving at in his original post but bwfcfan 5s "Symptom of our society" cobblers is snowflakey undergraduate essay tosh. All it does is illustrate just how far some remainers still are from grasping what's wrong with the EU. Nail on the head there mate. Those two are the ones who live in a bubble and echo chamber. Put NiC back in town and he’d soon be sporting a bonehead complete with 18 hole Doc Martens. Utterly clueless to the real world, but patronising as fuck. Heres the EU, and their immigration success.. https://www.thelocal.de/20190731/refugees-receives-classes-on-sexual-consent-in-berlin/amp?__twitter_impression=true Would love some multiculturalism lover to even try to laud that as a success. Quote
paulhanley Posted July 31, 2019 Posted July 31, 2019 7 minutes ago, miamiwhite said: Nail on the head there mate. Those two are the ones who live in a bubble and echo chamber. Put NiC back in town and he’d soon be sporting a bonehead complete with 18 hole Doc Martens. Utterly clueless to the real world, but patronising as fuck. Heres the EU, and their immigration success.. https://www.thelocal.de/20190731/refugees-receives-classes-on-sexual-consent-in-berlin/amp?__twitter_impression=true Would love some multiculturalism lover to even try to laud that as a success. If there's one way of spotting a true remainer its that they've been consistently wrong about everything since John Major was in power yet still trot out the same old bollocks and expect people to listen to them. The word is "sussed". They've been sussed and the EU has been sussed. Quote
miamiwhite Posted July 31, 2019 Author Posted July 31, 2019 Just now, paulhanley said: If there's one way of spotting a true remainer its that they've been consistently wrong about everything since John Major was in power yet still trot out the same old bollocks and expect people to listen to them. The word is "sussed". They've been sussed and the EU has been sussed. Spot on again sir. In the defence of the younger patronising plums, they’ve actually not seen life outside the EU, so with the being snowflakes of the highest order, I can imagine the “project” fear they’re currently suffering. As for that link re sexual cultural classes....that sums Merkel’s ludicrous policies up. No doubt the remainers will casually avoid that article. Quote
paulhanley Posted July 31, 2019 Posted July 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, miamiwhite said: Spot on again sir. In the defence of the younger patronising plums, they’ve actually not seen life outside the EU, so with the being snowflakes of the highest order, I can imagine the “project” fear they’re currently suffering. As for that link re sexual cultural classes....that sums Merkel’s ludicrous policies up. No doubt the remainers will casually avoid that article. Let's see if they come back to you about the Merkel article. If they do - it'll be to try to complicate the debate and make out (complete with a confected, patronising, careworn weariness) that you simply don't understand. How do those barbarians who live outside the EU cope eh? 🙂 Quote
Farrelli Posted July 31, 2019 Posted July 31, 2019 PH is on one tonight folks, confected, big Trev, careworn, he's making a damn good case. Quote
Tonge moor green jacket Posted July 31, 2019 Posted July 31, 2019 In summary then, if you have a degree you know everything about the world, are liberal minded, blah de blah, and are a remainer. If not then the opposite applies. Well fuck me sideways, seems like I was lied to for at least three years of my life. Quote
paulhanley Posted July 31, 2019 Posted July 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said: In summary then, if you have a degree you know everything about the world, are liberal minded, blah de blah, and are a remainer. If not then the opposite applies. Well fuck me sideways, seems like I was lied to for at least three years of my life. I don't seem to fit the bill. I've got a degree in politics and international relations. Still - I must know fuck all because I voted leave. Quote
Tonge moor green jacket Posted July 31, 2019 Posted July 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, paulhanley said: I don't seem to fit the bill. I've got a degree in politics and international relations. Still - I must know fuck all because I voted leave. You wasted that time as well? I'm waiting for the remain police to find me and demand the money back. Quote
Not in Crawley Posted July 31, 2019 Posted July 31, 2019 I thought I’d actually simplified the points. ho hum. Quote
paulhanley Posted July 31, 2019 Posted July 31, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said: You wasted that time as well? I'm waiting for the remain police to find me and demand the money back. Must have done. Clearly wasn't sharp enough to ascend to enlightened remainderdom and the ability to sit with a furrowed brow thinking that my world view is the only world view and anyone who disagrees is a heretic/extremist/racist/sexist/mysoginist etc etc Edited July 31, 2019 by paulhanley Quote
miamiwhite Posted July 31, 2019 Author Posted July 31, 2019 25 minutes ago, paulhanley said: Let's see if they come back to you about the Merkel article. If they do - it'll be to try to complicate the debate and make out (complete with a confected, patronising, careworn weariness) that you simply don't understand. How do those barbarians who live outside the EU cope eh? 🙂 No doubt they’ll say it’s good to see the “problem” being addressed like some have elsewhere mate. Problem being addressed ? Fuck me pink,, this is 2019 as many like to say on here.............there shouldn’t be a problem. As a kid did we see stuff like Prevent, MEND etc ? Did we bollocks. Why do we see it now ? Hmmmmmm, that’s a tough one for some to answer. Yet certain fools embrace this stuff as the best thing since naan bread. Quote
miamiwhite Posted July 31, 2019 Author Posted July 31, 2019 Just now, Not in Crawley said: I thought I’d actually simplified the points. ho hum. Simplify the German article then. Quote
miamiwhite Posted July 31, 2019 Author Posted July 31, 2019 1 minute ago, paulhanley said: Must have done. Clearly wasn't sharp enough to ascend to enlightened remainderdom and the ability so sit with a furrowed brow thinking that my world view is the only world view and anyone who disagrees is a heretic/extremist/racist/sexist/mysoginist etc etc Take a prize sir, any prize. As Jim Bowen’s sidekick would say........”in ooooooonnnnee” Quote
paulhanley Posted July 31, 2019 Posted July 31, 2019 Just now, miamiwhite said: Take a prize sir, any prize. As Jim Bowen’s sidekick would say........”in ooooooonnnnee” Can I have the speedboat, Jim? 🙂 Quote
miamiwhite Posted July 31, 2019 Author Posted July 31, 2019 3 minutes ago, paulhanley said: Can I have the speedboat, Jim? 🙂 Only if you live in a high rise council flat in Wolverhampton The remainers on here think you do have one anyway mate....a council flat that is... Quote
paulhanley Posted July 31, 2019 Posted July 31, 2019 Just now, miamiwhite said: Only if you live in a high rise council flat in Wolverhampton The remainers on here think you do have one anyway mate....a council flat that is... I'll let them think I live in a council flat but they can fuck off if they start thinking I support Wolves! 🙂 Quote
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