BLM

[Escobarp]

2 minutes ago, Rudy said:

I honestly honestly think that’s absolute horseshit. 
 

Not only is that not looking at the best person for the role but that’s also identifying people because of their race, there’s a certain irony in that. 
Next year I’ll have to create my own team of fitness and medical staff to create a rehab team. I’ll go off their experience, CV and general feel for them.

If that fails I’ll pick the one with the biggest tits. 

I agree and she agrees mate. It is happening in a lot of companies now. I guess the flip side of it may be that in the past sex and race discrimination led to the imbalance so they are using positive discrimination to address it which I guess evens it out. But it , to my simplistic understanding , makes me think two wrongs don’t make a right. 
 

biggest tits and looking mucky  should be first on the list pal 

[kent_white]

4 minutes ago, Rudy said:

If that fails I’ll pick the one with the biggest tits. 

Be careful what you wish for. That might be me post lockdown 😆

[miamiwhite]

10 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Be careful what you wish for. That might be me post lockdown 😆

You'll be fine mate, there's plenty of tits on here 😜 

[Ani]

24 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

My missus works for a bank. She has a big hand in recruitment policy and control from a risk perspective. 
I had the conversation with her the other day about their policy. They use software which removes gender race name etc from the applications and cv’s. They then shortlist. I asked her what happens if they get a shortlist of 8 white men from that exercise. She said they drop down the list of candidates until they find a woman and someone from an ethic background. This then displaces two of the white male candidates. 

obviously i asked was that fair and was that not discriminatory? She said yes it most likely was but they have a gender and race imbalance in their organization so are addressing it. 
 

So much for best person gets the job 

Why do they have to remove those things from applications ? 
Assume they will look at the profiles of candidates they get by source of advert ? 

[Escobarp]

2 minutes ago, Ani said:

Why do they have to remove those things from applications ? 
Assume they will look at the profiles of candidates they get by source of advert ? 

They do it to avoid unconscious or conscious bias? That way you have no idea who the candidate is what racial background etc. 

[Ani]

3 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

They do it to avoid unconscious or conscious bias? That way you have no idea who the candidate is what racial background etc. 

Yeah. Because when recruiting we all subconsciously have an image of the perfect candidate. ( for the arrogant amongst us it is usually a younger upmarket version of ourselves). 
The stupid thing is that by reading they went to StMarys Catholic school for boys 10 years ago and played first rugby. You get a pretty clear view that is 99% accurate anyway. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

53 minutes ago, kent_white said:

I remember learning about a concept called 'self fulfilling prophecy' when I was younger and did sociology for a bit.

The idea is that if you grow up being told and therefore thinking that the world is pitted against you - you'll have poorer outcomes irrespective of whether the world is actually pitted against you (that's a really basic definition but it gives you the gist). 

It's always stuck with me that - and it's one of the reasons I think telling kids that they live in a system which is institutionally racist is such a dangerous idea. You'd better be damned sure what your saying is actually true to a significant degree. Otherwise you risk doing more harm than good.

Yep. Very true.

Slightly off topic but relevant nonetheless, was an interview with an mp in one of the former red wall seats. Completely changing this approach formed the basis of his (and others') campaigning at the last GE.

More too it than a couple of sentences, but that's for elsewhere. 

[Rudy]

45 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

I agree and she agrees mate. It is happening in a lot of companies now. I guess the flip side of it may be that in the past sex and race discrimination led to the imbalance so they are using positive discrimination to address it which I guess evens it out. But it , to my simplistic understanding , makes me think two wrongs don’t make a right. 
 

biggest tits and looking mucky  should be first on the list pal 

44 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Be careful what you wish for. That might be me post lockdown 😆

Don’t worry I’ll have you beach ready for a Phuket brothel in no time 

[Tony]

Re Stop & Search

Cresida Dick the Met Chief reported to the Home Affairs Select Committee 7th July 2020.

She pointed out that a disproportionate number of victims and perpetrators of violent crime in London were of African-Carribean heritage  - that's why they search more. 

And the positive outcome i. e. did the search identify criminality is similar across the 4 main ethinic groups. I would argue the fact it is only just above 20% shows they are searching too many. 

[birch-chorley]

1 hour ago, kent_white said:

I remember learning about a concept called 'self fulfilling prophecy' when I was younger and did sociology for a bit.

The idea is that if you grow up being told and therefore thinking that the world is pitted against you - you'll have poorer outcomes irrespective of whether the world is actually pitted against you (that's a really basic definition but it gives you the gist). 

It's always stuck with me that - and it's one of the reasons I think telling kids that they live in a system which is institutionally racist is such a dangerous idea. You'd better be damned sure what your saying is actually true to a significant degree. Otherwise you risk doing more harm than good.

Agree with all this, I think Barack Obama shared similar views around some black peoples blaming racism for holding the back economically when in reality that mindset isn’t productive...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/19/obama-at-morehouse-black-men-cannot-use-racism-as-/
 

[Escobarp]

23 minutes ago, Rudy said:

Don’t worry I’ll have you beach ready for a Phuket brothel in no time 

Told you preseason tour to Thailand is on the cards. Carnage 

[Not in Crawley]

1 hour ago, kent_white said:

I agree with parts of this. Although I think it's also overly simplistic to just pick 'race' or 'skin colour' as the main driver as to why people aren't getting 'into the room'. Although it's probably easier to do a study on as it's much easier to quantify as opposed to something more abstract like 'class'.

Let's take what you're saying as read though. What changes would you like to see happen right now to improve things? And I really mean institutional changes rather than societal ones.

Socio demographic profiles are used, to make the distinction of class more definable. Its not that skin colour is the only defining characteristic, its that backgrounds (and specifically educational) are the barriers and that overwhelmingly there is a higher percentage of diversity in these profiles. Thats where the system tilted.

Not booing footballers would be a start, in terms of change? Education is the start, we have a flawed system in the UK and it needs to be looked at root and branch. In workplaces now, embedding an EDI strategy into the culture - not just lipservice but actionable and quantifiable targets met. Getting more diversity (sex, age, ethnicity and background) on selection panels in the workplace, opening up opportunities in workforces for non degree applicants in trainee programmes, having set targets that the workforce is more representative of the city it exists in, putting these structures in place now for the future, better links between business and education so pathways are clearer and more opportunities exist.

By getting more diverse voices in positions of power in education, in business, in the social sphere, voices that have actual capital, then, and only then, will we start to see change.

And yes it will be painful, people don't want to open doors if it closes down opportunities they have taken for granted, but for a better, and more equitable society it has to happen, and thankfully it is.

Those not on board are resisting a change that is coming - step out of the way if you can't lend your hand as someone once sang, because the times, folks, they are a-changing.......

[birch-chorley]

1 hour ago, Rudy said:

I honestly honestly think that’s absolute horseshit. 
 

Not only is that not looking at the best person for the role but that’s also identifying people because of their race, there’s a certain irony in that. 
Next year I’ll have to create my own team of fitness and medical staff to create a rehab team. I’ll go off their experience, CV and general feel for them.

If that fails I’ll pick the one with the biggest tits. 

Positive discrimination is absolutely an issues 

One of my best mates works in the Software team at well know FTSE 100, their software Engineering apprenticeship is a highly regarded scheme and its inundated with applicants, however its mainly males. Following all the gender pay gap stuff a few years ago they were told in no uncertain terms by management that they had to try to level this up a bit. So it no longer became the best person for the job driven by the results from testing and interview. Some candidates got on the apprenticeship programme because of their gender, others lost out because of their gender 

In the hunt for equality you can often drive inequality 

[kent_white]

11 minutes ago, Not in Crawley said:

Socio demographic profiles are used, to make the distinction of class more definable. Its not that skin colour is the only defining characteristic, its that backgrounds (and specifically educational) are the barriers and that overwhelmingly there is a higher percentage of diversity in these profiles. Thats where the system tilted.

Not booing footballers would be a start, in terms of change? Education is the start, we have a flawed system in the UK and it needs to be looked at root and branch. In workplaces now, embedding an EDI strategy into the culture - not just lipservice but actionable and quantifiable targets met. Getting more diversity (sex, age, ethnicity and background) on selection panels in the workplace, opening up opportunities in workforces for non degree applicants in trainee programmes, having set targets that the workforce is more representative of the city it exists in, putting these structures in place now for the future, better links between business and education so pathways are clearer and more opportunities exist.

By getting more diverse voices in positions of power in education, in business, in the social sphere, voices that have actual capital, then, and only then, will we start to see change.

And yes it will be painful, people don't want to open doors if it closes down opportunities they have taken for granted, but for a better, and more equitable society it has to happen, and thankfully it is.

Those not on board are resisting a change that is coming - step out of the way if you can't lend your hand as someone once sang, because the times, folks, they are a-changing.......

All nice ideas in principle. I think the danger with that approach is that you end up with tokenism - without ever tackling the root cause.

And I imagine targets would be extremely difficult to quantify and police. 

And presumably you'd have to accept a short to medium term decline in the quality of services with the longer term pay off being a more representative workplace? I'm not saying that's a bad swap necessarily but a hard one for a lot of organisations to swallow. Particularly in the private sector.

Would you be happy to step down out of your position in favour of someone less qualified on grounds of their ethnicity? Or if your daughters were denied the place at grammar school in favour of someone from a less privileged background?

Happy is probably the wrong word - but would you be cool about if it was for the greater good you're describing?

[Not in Crawley]

That's why there neds to be actionable EDI strategies in place within organisations - this is absolutley about avoiding tokenism at every turn.

Its also not about less qualified people in roles, its about putting the building blocks to place to get people qualified, and yes its a valid point an one which has been discussion and many meetings and forums I've attended over the last 12 months specifically in the culture sector which is overhwhlemed with highly qualified, upper middle class white women for south east England. I'm an outlier in that I'm a man, I'm Northern, Im straight and I didn't go to a red brick or Oxbridge. But I am aware of my privildged position as a white, middle class man. I know the cutural touchpoints and can use them, I know the language to use and when to apply it, I have advantages beyond my modest interllect. 

So, would I be happy to know there was more competition? There has to be, and certainly to make my sector fit for purpose, or else you only get one dominant cultural narrative, or minorties are framed as victims. In all honesty, it won't effect me personally, I am in a priviledged position of having worked in a sector for 20 years with a range of skills aquired over that time so much so I managed to get a new job in a very difficult climate off the bat, and be invited to start a new business. I see it now in the position I have as my responsiblilty to help people up, not to pull up the ladder. If I don't I'm as much a part of the problem as those booing at football matches.

[Zico]

3 hours ago, birch-chorley said:

Positive discrimination is absolutely an issues 

One of my best mates works in the Software team at well know FTSE 100, their software Engineering apprenticeship is a highly regarded scheme and its inundated with applicants, however its mainly males. Following all the gender pay gap stuff a few years ago they were told in no uncertain terms by management that they had to try to level this up a bit. So it no longer became the best person for the job driven by the results from testing and interview. Some candidates got on the apprenticeship programme because of their gender, others lost out because of their gender 

In the hunt for equality you can often drive inequality 

I did a degree in software engineering starting in 1995

out of 100 or so people on the course there were 3 girls

one was quite fit but also dreary as fuck, the other two's best chance was with one of the nerds after a few beers on a course night out

back then, it just wasn't a profession that interested many females

I think coding has changed now though, and there's far more women involved, but still, should always be best person for the job

that said a little charisma can go a long way, because the better at coding someone is, the more of a know it all geeky cunt with zero social skills they tend to be, like @Carlos

when I worked at a design agency, the owner tended to favour more socially aware coders to build his websites, as he knew he had to put them in front of clients to discuss web builds, so the best one for the job was not necessarily the best coder, which is fair enough

Edited December 11, 2020 by ZicoKelly

[Not in Crawley]

Also coding being taught in schools has made the biggest change which shows that its not that women were not interested or capable, it is again down to the presented opportunities.

[Zico]

23 minutes ago, Not in Crawley said:

Also coding being taught in schools has made the biggest change which shows that its not that women were not interested or capable, it is again down to the presented opportunities.

dunno about that so much in terms of interest, at our school you could do IT if you wanted, and you could then take computer science at a level or do a btec at bolton/wigan tech, if you wanted

the opportunities were as limited for everyone but they were there, for those who were interested, I was coding at 8, because I had a BBC Acorn Electron, it was a proactive choice because I was shit at football

it's also a totally different ball game now - back then it was all machine code and high level languages and it was difficult to understand or get into off your own back

now everyone has access to a PC, the internet, coding tutorials etc, and the web and apps are mainstream and used every day, so it follows more people will take an interest - and the whole "industry" is just a lot more people friendly in terms of getting into and understanding, it's just more accessible now

[kent_white]

1 hour ago, Not in Crawley said:

That's why there neds to be actionable EDI strategies in place within organisations - this is absolutley about avoiding tokenism at every turn.

Its also not about less qualified people in roles, its about putting the building blocks to place to get people qualified, and yes its a valid point an one which has been discussion and many meetings and forums I've attended over the last 12 months specifically in the culture sector which is overhwhlemed with highly qualified, upper middle class white women for south east England. I'm an outlier in that I'm a man, I'm Northern, Im straight and I didn't go to a red brick or Oxbridge. But I am aware of my privildged position as a white, middle class man. I know the cutural touchpoints and can use them, I know the language to use and when to apply it, I have advantages beyond my modest interllect. 

So, would I be happy to know there was more competition? There has to be, and certainly to make my sector fit for purpose, or else you only get one dominant cultural narrative, or minorties are framed as victims. In all honesty, it won't effect me personally, I am in a priviledged position of having worked in a sector for 20 years with a range of skills aquired over that time so much so I managed to get a new job in a very difficult climate off the bat, and be invited to start a new business. I see it now in the position I have as my responsiblilty to help people up, not to pull up the ladder. If I don't I'm as much a part of the problem as those booing at football matches.

Straight? 

🙂

[royal white]

4 hours ago, Escobarp said:

My missus works for a bank. She has a big hand in recruitment policy and control from a risk perspective. 
I had the conversation with her the other day about their policy. They use software which removes gender race name etc from the applications and cv’s. They then shortlist. I asked her what happens if they get a shortlist of 8 white men from that exercise. She said they drop down the list of candidates until they find a woman and someone from an ethic background. This then displaces two of the white male candidates. 

obviously i asked was that fair and was that not discriminatory? She said yes it most likely was but they have a gender and race imbalance in their organization so are addressing it. 
 

So much for best person gets the job 

This happened a lot in the military late in the late 90s. Obviously some desk jockey in Whitehall decided not enough of the minorities serving were getting promoted. Within months some of the shittest soldiers (not all) were on command courses and getting promoted. They were failing certain aspects of the course but then being given 3-4-5 extra chances to pass. Many senior officers voiced their concerns all which obviously fell on deaf ears which resulted in many lads leaving. 

[miamiwhite]

10 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Straight? 

🙂

Would help if he could spell privileged correctly😉 

[Escobarp]

Just now, royal white said:

This happened a lot in the military late in the late 90s. Obviously some desk jockey in Whitehall decided not enough of the minorities serving were getting promoted. Within months some of the shittest soldiers (not all) were on command courses and getting promoted. They were failing certain aspects of the course but then being given 3-4-5 extra chances to pass. Many senior officers voiced their concerns all which obviously fell on deaf ears which resulted in many lads leaving. 

I think it happens now more than we realise. I guess in some ways the balance needs addressing but by doing so you are effectively trying to right the wrongs of the past rather than doing what is the right thing now. 
 

by recruiting fairly and best person for the role it may take a along time to address the imbalance but by taking this approach white males are being unfairly discriminated against. 
 

[Escobarp]

2 minutes ago, miamiwhite said:

Would help if he could spell privileged correctly😉 

It’s a cunt of a word to spell though eh 

[miamiwhite]

1 minute ago, Escobarp said:

It’s a cunt of a word to spell though eh 

Even better when he spelt intellect incorrectly too 😄 

[Not in Crawley]

Being dyslexic is a right bugger.