Ani Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 I'll accept that the law has a role to play in tackling racism - but let's not confuse laws for words and deeds. There's a massive difference. Laws that focus on words are a waste of time. It's the deeds that matter. So if you want to discuss racist imigration laws then fine - but laws on the effects of racism - language - don't tackle racism at all - that's my point. We don't need laws to tell us what to think or what to say - you can't legislate thought - you can legislate against discrimination. The example of Eto is a good one - he did indeed suffer racist abuse - but he should have dealt with it like the great black footballing pioneers of the past - by shutting them up with his performance on the pitch. To say the anti racist industry tackled racism in football stadia is to decry the fantastic success of the likes of John Barnes, Luther Blisset and good old Jay Jay in dealing with the problem. Footballers are encouraged to be victims by the anti racist industry - that's a problem in and of itself. I agree if anyone in society is anyway bullied they should do nothing about and get their heads down and do a good job. I honestly think that is what is meant when that bloke talked about having a dream. Or maybe as a society we can move and be better than the 'good old days' Quote
dingdangdo Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Still believe this is massively overblown and am disappointed that no one has seen fit to comment on the disparity in punishment between Suarez and Keane. The money side of it I can see (although I am not sure todays footballers are earning 10 times what Keane was). It's the 3 game ban v. 8 game ban I am struggling with when one considers the 3 game ban was for a career ending tackle delivered with absolute intent and the 8 game ban is for calling someone a nasty name. Bolty - I'm wih you here - the disparity is most revealing and reflects the elites cultural priorities. Reminds me of that story of US forces writing homophobic graffiti on a smart bomb destined for Iraq. They got seriously reprimanded for their lack of cultural awareness....so it's I'm to blow up dark skinned people in faraway lands but don't upset the cultural elite's PC code of conduct. Why do you think the disparity exists? Quote
Traf Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Chelsea's players are hoping Suarez gets his ban reduced on appeal. They're very worried about what John Terry might get up to, if he's unavailable for 2 months. Quote
SpiritofBurnden Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 The fact that John Barnes and many others like him chose to fight racism with their skill did indeed have a positive effect on challenging racism on the terraces. You undermine their heroic contribution to claim otherwise. And the legislation of words and thought (which are qualitatively different than actions) has no limits. Be careful what you wish for my friend. So a black player ignoring racist abuse is 'heroic', whilst a black player reporting a racist isn't? You seem to be more concerned about the 'infringement' of your civil liberties than the protection of the civil liberties of others. Quote
Ani Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Bolty - I'm wih you here - the disparity is most revealing and reflects the elites cultural priorities. Reminds me of that story of US forces writing homophobic graffiti on a smart bomb destined for Iraq. They got seriously reprimanded for their lack of cultural awareness....so it's I'm to blow up dark skinned people in faraway lands but don't upset the cultural elite's PC code of conduct. Why do you think the disparity exists? Because you are blowing up the dark skinned people because you are at war with their country and the war is not because they are darkies. In the war with germany sometime in the last century white people blew up white people as well. i am convinced you are here purely as a wind up, doing a good job keep it up. Quote
dingdangdo Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 i am convinced you are here purely as a wind up, doing a good job keep it up. I'm not here as a wind up - I do enjoy a good argument though. Quote
dingdangdo Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 So a black player ignoring racist abuse is 'heroic', whilst a black player reporting a racist isn't? You seem to be more concerned about the 'infringement' of your civil liberties than the protection of the civil liberties of others. Who said anything about ignoring the abuse? I didn't. I said there are many ways to deal with racist abuse besides running to the authorities. And protection from hate speech is not an issue of liberty. Since when has the freedom not to be offended become an issue for civil liberty? That's a confused reading of liberty if you ask me. Quote
frank_spencer Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Who said anything about ignoring the abuse? I didn't. I said there are many ways to deal with racist abuse besides running to the authorities. And protection from hate speech is not an issue of liberty. Since when has the freedom not to be offended become an issue for civil liberty? That's a confused reading of liberty if you ask me. you're looking at it the other way around though. Surely Evra should be able to go about his job withouth having to worry about racial abuse from other people in his work place? If Evra instead of a footballer was a sales man and was working on a sales floor and one of his co-workers in order to gain the advantage on getting the sale and get the comission for himself. spent a large chunk of the time abusing Evra about his race. You'd expect his Evra with probable help from the unions to go to his employers to do something about it? Quote
SpiritofBurnden Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Who said anything about ignoring the abuse? I didn't. I said there are many ways to deal with racist abuse besides running to the authorities. And protection from hate speech is not an issue of liberty. Since when has the freedom not to be offended become an issue for civil liberty? That's a confused reading of liberty if you ask me. You're trivialising racism if you think it's just about offensive words. You've said that players should sort it out themselves, by showing everyone what a good player they are, or by some unspecified action behind closed doors. Either way, it's not to be brought to the attention of the authorities and therefore us, so no-one would really know that there was even a problem, other than those directly involved and if Liverpool's response is anything to go by, they would just deny it was racist incident at all. That's tantamount to ignoring it. Quote
frank_spencer Posted January 2, 2012 Posted January 2, 2012 Racist? Xenophobic? yes. Racist? no. Quote
bolty58 Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 you're looking at it the other way around though. Surely Evra should be able to go about his job withouth having to worry about racial abuse from other people in his work place? If Evra instead of a footballer was a sales man and was working on a sales floor and one of his co-workers in order to gain the advantage on getting the sale and get the comission for himself. spent a large chunk of the time abusing Evra about his race. You'd expect his Evra with probable help from the unions to go to his employers to do something about it? Something only a small minority are now capable of if comments on this thread are to be the measure. Most have already been guided by the 'current trend' and are eagerly competing to see who can indeed be the most holy. So far, the extremist seeking a Suarez lifetime ban is leading the pack and the usual suspects are not far behind. Did Suarez deserve punishment? A resounding 'yes'. Did the punishment fit the crime? IMO no - massively overblown and I despise Evra even more than I already did now. A filthy DMB, cheating and whining little shithouse and a pathetic snitch.. Quote
Youri Djorkaeff Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Something only a small minority are now capable of if comments on this thread are to be the measure. Most have already been guided by the 'current trend' and are eagerly competing to see who can indeed be the most holy. So far, the extremist seeking a Suarez lifetime ban is leading the pack and the usual suspects are not far behind. Did Suarez deserve punishment? A resounding 'yes'. Did the punishment fit the crime? IMO no - massively overblown and I despise Evra even more than I already did now. A filthy DMB, cheating and whining little shithouse and a pathetic snitch.. Nobody is suggesting a lifetime ban, i mentioned it but i admitted what i said was ridiculous... something said "in the heat of the moment" What myself and the majority of this thread have been arguing is that the punishment is justified. The fact you are blaming Evra for the outcome is crazy and daft Bolty. There is concrete evidence that Suarez racially abused Evra on a number of occasions and Evra has the right to report that just like anyone else should have the right to report racism. Suarez could have called him a million other names that didnt refer to the colour of his skin. Players shout at each all the time in a heated environment and the referees allow it because of the environment. But Suarez chose to cross the line of abuse and therefore deserves everything he gets. Do you really believe that racial abuse on the football pitch should just be ignored? What do you think the consequences would be if we allowed players and fans to continually get away with it? This isnt some mission to be holy mate, nor is it a current trend. Its common bloody sense. Banter and abuse in the stands and on the pitch is all a great part of football but there has to be a line drawn. Just like Munich and Hillsbrough chants are wrong so is racist abuse on the pitch. Ta very much Quote
bolty58 Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Nobody is suggesting a lifetime ban, i mentioned it but i admitted what i said was ridiculous... something said "in the heat of the moment" Still, many thanks for answering to 'extremist' What myself and the majority of this thread have been arguing is that the punishment is justified. The fact you are blaming Evra for the outcome is crazy and daft Bolty. Nowhere have I said this. He was clearly 'within his rights' - the only question is whether he was right to make official complaints. Clearly you and the majority think he was whilst myself and Dangler (weird to be not swimming against the tide alone and with a bleedin commie too!) think he made a mountain out of a molehill (cue Brother Spencer with his 'decades of abuse over the colour of their skin' speech). Like SKD, I found Evra to be an odious little fcuker a long time before this incident and all that has transpired has made him even more of an obnoxious cunt in my eyes.is concrete evidence that Suarez racially abused Evra on a number of occasions and Evra has the right to report that just like anyone else should have the right to report racism. Suarez could have called him a million other names that didnt refer to the colour of his skin. Players shout at each all the time in a heated environment and the referees allow it because of the environment. But Suarez chose to cross the line of abuse and therefore deserves everything he gets. Do you really believe that racial abuse on the football pitch should just be ignored? No, on one condition - every other hurtful personal insult gets the same treatment. "I nip round to fuck your missus whilst you are out", "honky", "snowflake" - everything. This is the way you want the world to be so it's one rule for everyone. Is this the Brave New World you aspire to? What do you think the consequences would be if we allowed players and fans to continually get away with it? Haven't a fcuking clue. Riots in Moss Side, Bradford and Bristol? No go zone immigrant ghettoes for police? These must never happen. Hang on a minute......................? Seriously, no. The chants certainly had to be stopped and if you think I condone racism you could not be more wrong. My belief is that the incident has been blown out of all proportion and the net result of this will not be good for anyone. I really hope we aren't going to see an explosion of these accusations within the game because certain players think they can gain from it in some way (including seriously weakening a rival for a few months). This isnt some mission to be holy mate, nor is it a current trend. Its common bloody sense. Banter and abuse in the stands and on the pitch is all a great part of football but there has to be a line drawn. Just like Munich and Hillsbrough chants are wrong so is racist abuse on the pitch. Ta very much Just a question. 'Ten German bombers'. Yay or nay? Quote
freds dad Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Just announced that the bin dippers won't be appealing his 8 match ban. Perhaps they read the report that implied he was laying cunt! Quote
Ani Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Just announced that the bin dippers won't be appealing his 8 match ban. Perhaps they read the report that implied he was laying cunt! he bet against himself? Quote
HomerJay Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Just announced that the bin dippers won't be appealing his 8 match ban. Perhaps they read the report that implied he was laying cunt! They should now publicly apologise for wearing those pathetic tshirts Quote
no balls Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 They should now publicly apologise for wearing those pathetic tshirts It was embarrassing at the time and now even more so. Maybe their fans will get off their persecuted high horses too. Doubtful though. Quote
pato Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 They should now publicly apologise for wearing those pathetic tshirts Pathetic protests should be limited to bed sheets and marching from a pub you were going to go to , to a match you were going to go to Quote
MalcolmW Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 There were two interpreters at the hearing, one for Suarez and one for Dalglish. No, actually one was an LFC interpeter to put the questions to Suarez, and the other was an independent one to translate Suarez's answers to the tribunal (not that they didn't trust LFC of course). Quote
dingdangdo Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 you're looking at it the other way around though. Surely Evra should be able to go about his job withouth having to worry about racial abuse from other people in his work place? If Evra instead of a footballer was a sales man and was working on a sales floor and one of his co-workers in order to gain the advantage on getting the sale and get the comission for himself. spent a large chunk of the time abusing Evra about his race. You'd expect his Evra with probable help from the unions to go to his employers to do something about it? Sure Evra should be able to go about his job without having to worry about racial abuse - the point here is what should happen when he encounters it? You make a good point about his union - an excellent point actually. But running to the boss over a colleague to colleague or player to player - never! Quote
dingdangdo Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 You're trivialising racism if you think it's just about offensive words. You've said that players should sort it out themselves, by showing everyone what a good player they are, or by some unspecified action behind closed doors. Either way, it's not to be brought to the attention of the authorities and therefore us, so no-one would really know that there was even a problem, other than those directly involved and if Liverpool's response is anything to go by, they would just deny it was racist incident at all. That's tantamount to ignoring it. No - absolutely the opposite SOB. It's the obsessive focus on words not deeds that trivialises racism. Deal with the causes (social discrimination, employment discrimination, police action, immigration laws and the rest) not the effects. And we all need our private space - it's vitally important we have a private space to say what we think away from the spotlight of the state or the media. There we can argue out our differences. We don't need to know about the Evra/Suarez spat - its none of our business - its a private matter between them. Quote
HomerJay Posted January 3, 2012 Posted January 3, 2012 Dingdang, I'm sure I'm not the only one but I find your views nothing short of baffling. Quote
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