no balls Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Perhaps they thought it was ok to do it because in the eyes of their culture, largely evolved from their religious beliefs, it absolves them from acting in a civlised manner. Next you will be telling me that your muslim mate is perfectly entitled to beat his muslim wife if he chooses as Sharia law states its ok to do so. I'd hazard a guess folk who think there's an over reaction & we should be tolerant of backward cultures have never really seen the fruits of Sharia law in practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Carlos Posted June 5, 2014 Moderators Share Posted June 5, 2014 It's a good job christianity doesn't make people kill folk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youri McAnespie Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Yes, that's correct. The Rigby murderers even told us so themselves. I don't see what the bloke in the next office to you has to do with anything. I didn't even imply that the Rigby murder or honour killings say anything about other Muslims, but it is self-evident that the Islamic faith inspires some people to wickedness. It is delusional to think otherwise. We should tell them their belief system is flawed and that they should reform it post haste or else. This has worked a treat down the years. If somebody tells me what I'm doing wrong (not now btw, not here) I take it onboard, I definitely don't become more entrenched or bloodyminded - that's not human nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent_white Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 See this is the trouble with you lefties on these issues. It takes a herculean effort to acknowledge the bleedin obvious and rouse yourselves to the obvious conclusion that a brown person's religious beliefs or culture might have made them do something. For years the left's reaction to Muslims doing something wicked is instantly to 'understand' it. Fuck understanding it. Punish it. Have you asked yourself what might need to happen before you think there is something to see? Perhaps some public transport could get blown up in London. Oh no wait. Perhaps an off duty soldier could be cut to pieces on the street. Oh no wait. Perhaps these honour killings could start happening regularly. Oh no wait. So given the these three incidents. What do you think is an appropriate response? Over and above what we've done in sending the perpetrators to prison in the cases where they are still alive. Are you advocating some kind of collective punishment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgoefc Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 So given the these three incidents. What do you think is an appropriate response? Over and above what we've done in sending the perpetrators to prison in the cases where they are still alive. Are you advocating some kind of collective punishment? Perhaps rescinding their right to practice Sharia in the UK might be a good place to start. It just may send out the message that our society does not accept backwards morality no matter what the religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggie Tate Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) We should tell them their belief system is flawed and that they should reform it post haste or else. This has worked a treat down the years. By all means. If there are aspects of belief which inspire honour killings or murders of off duty soldiers in the streets then it seems necessary to make the point that those who hold certain beliefs will not be allowed to interfere with society. As you seem to be an expert on why it wouldn't work you should explain where it has been tried and why it didn't work there. Because beginning with the Rushdie affair and latterly the radicalisation in mosques, the British shariah courts, female genital mutilation, the incitements to murder written on placards, the Mohammed cartoons, vote rigging in Tower Hamlets, extremists taking over schools etc and the years long struggle to kick Hamza out, all I seem to recall is a total absence of being tough on these people and a lack of demand made of them that they must live our way if they want the benefits of this society. If somebody tells me what I'm doing wrong (not now btw, not here) I take it onboard, I definitely don't become more entrenched or bloodyminded - that's not human nature. Yes, what they need is a cuddle and gentle chat to show them where they've gone wrong. They'll take it on board. Not that Islamic extremists are bloody-minded or entrenched already or anything. So given the these three incidents. What do you think is an appropriate response? Over and above what we've done in sending the perpetrators to prison in the cases where they are still alive. Are you advocating some kind of collective punishment? I'm really not suggesting anything. We've not really got onto that yet. For now, I merely question why there is such a reluctance to lay blame at Islam for something wicked a Muslim does, even when the perpetrator themselves tell you it had everything to do with Islam. Instead people wring their hands and say things like 'I can't believe I'm about to say this, but religion seems to have played a role,' or 'this is not true Islam,' or 'this was not an Islamic act' or 'there is a Muslim in my office who is a nice bloke.' Edited June 5, 2014 by Maggie Tate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny G Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 We only tend to tackle extremism when it gets to terrorism. it should be nipped in the bud at the early stages i.e radical mosque sermons etc but we do not for fear of upsetting somebody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anewman Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 We only tend to tackle extremism when it gets to terrorism. it should be nipped in the bud at the early stages i.e radical mosque sermons etc but we do not for fear of upsetting somebody Should be nipped in the bud by flattening all mosques Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youri McAnespie Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Who said anything about gentle chats? I'm merely pointing out that, as far as religion goes, history has proven that forced reformation by outsiders hasn't worked - as for examples, take your pick. As for solutions, well I'm not employed to formulate solutions. I tend to take a macro-view Jules Darby. of religion and its attendent problems, like tobacco companies and junk food peddlers are turning their sights on the developing world, religion has always thrived where education standards are low, get folk educated and they'll reform themselves usually. I know there are idealogues and demagoguesand plotters and Jihadis out there who've received a high level of education, the Glasgow bomb Doctor springs to mind, but the footsoldiers are usually low on critical thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not in Crawley Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 By all means. If there are aspects of belief which inspire honour killings or murders of off duty soldiers in the streets then it seems necessary to make the point that those who hold certain beliefs will not be allowed to interfere with society. As you seem to be an expert on why it wouldn't work you should explain where it has been tried and why it didn't work there. Because beginning with the Rushdie affair and latterly the radicalisation in mosques, the British shariah courts, female genital mutilation, the incitements to murder written on placards, the Mohammed cartoons, vote rigging in Tower Hamlets, extremists taking over schools etc and the years long struggle to kick Hamza out, all I seem to recall is a total absence of being tough on these people and a lack of demand made of them that they must live our way if they want the benefits of this society. Yes, what they need is a cuddle and gentle chat to show them where they've gone wrong. They'll take it on board. Not that Islamic extremists are bloody-minded or entrenched already or anything. I'm really not suggesting anything. We've not really got onto that yet. For now, I merely question why there is such a reluctance to lay blame at Islam for something wicked a Muslim does, even when the perpetrator themselves tell you it had everything to do with Islam. Instead people wring their hands and say things like 'I can't believe I'm about to say this, but religion seems to have played a role,' or 'this is not true Islam,' or 'this was not an Islamic act' or 'there is a Muslim in my office who is a nice bloke.' Because, and especially on here, you say anything that is not tempered by a caveat, you run the risk of sounding like you are calling for all Muslims to be guilty in the face of one person's actions in the name of their religion. You must be able to see the subtleties that I am afraid, are required if someone kills under the banner of any region. Don't make it out as though I'm some sort of apologist for this sort of behavior. He killed, he gets put into prison, end of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DazBob Posted June 5, 2014 Members Share Posted June 5, 2014 Exactly Crawley. He did a bad thing regardless of whether he thought he was entitled to do it. It was dealt with in the way any murder should be dealt with and he's been sent to prison. But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of depriving folk the opportunity to (once again) stir up a whole hornets' nest of hatred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomski Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Spot on chaps. This man is a individual spaz. He is a spaz for killing his wife and believing in odd behaviours. While Mr Patel who doesn't kill his wife or believe in backward teachings isn't a spaz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggie Tate Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 (edited) Because, and especially on here, you say anything that is not tempered by a caveat, you run the risk of sounding like you are calling for all Muslims to be guilty in the face of one person's actions in the name of their religion. No you don't. Not to anyone sensible anyway. If you self-censor like that you'll end up saying nothing of value. Which is the path the left has chosen in this country. Don't make it out as though I'm some sort of apologist for this sort of behaviour I didn't. Many on the left are, but I didn't accuse you of it. Exactly Crawley. He did a bad thing regardless of whether he thought he was entitled to do it. It was dealt with in the way any murder should be dealt with and he's been sent to prison. But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of depriving folk the opportunity to (once again) stir up a whole hornets' nest of hatred. Which has been done where by anyone serious? Pointing out what is obvious should not be avoided in case you are accused of whipping up hatred. It is obvious that a certain interpretation of Islam inspired these people to murder this woman, inspired those men to kill Lee Rigby and inspired the men who blew up the police officer this morning 300 yards from where I sit this minute. It is ridiculous and deliberately ignorant of the facts to suggest otherwise. The squeamishness over criticism of Islam for fear of being misunderstood or upsetting people is why almost nothing has been done about the extremists who have found the UK the best country in Europe in which to operate. That's something to be proud of, isn't it? Edited June 5, 2014 by Maggie Tate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radcliffe white Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Hornets nest of hatred bit over the top Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgoefc Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Exactly Crawley. He did a bad thing regardless of whether he thought he was entitled to do it. It was dealt with in the way any murder should be dealt with and he's been sent to prison. But hey, let's not let facts get in the way of depriving folk the opportunity to (once again) stir up a whole hornets' nest of hatred. Oh dear! lets play the race card! I hate sharia law and all that it stands for! I hate the fact that it systematically degrades women and makes them second class citizens, makes them cover up, lest they incite men to rape! I hate it so I I am a racist! So be it in your eyes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not in Crawley Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 No one was being squeamish about referencing the religion, as far as I could see but no one want to have it as the sole reason. A nutter is a nutter, even if the Quran gave him a template to excuse his actions. Doesn't mean anyone else is. Its not self-censorship, it's about acknowledging, as I said, the subtleties because neither of us have any idea if he'd have done this if he wasn't a Muslim so we can chase our own tail about this all day long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not in Crawley Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Oh dear! lets play the race card! I hate sharia law and all that it stands for! I hate the fact that it systematically degrades women and makes them second class citizens, makes them cover up, lest they incite men to rape! I hate it so I I am a racist! So be it in your eyes! That's not what he's saying. Wow. What is wrong with people on here today? No one is excusing his behavior for religious reasons and no one would say you are a racist for hating the more unsavory parts of Islam as with any religion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no balls Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Darren, Tom, he's not an individual nutter, he's a nutter could well have got away with what he did or dealt with leniently if he lived in another country. I never want it to happen in this and by not tackling it head on my fear is it will. If you think I'm being sensationalist, I think you're being naive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent_white Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Darren, Tom, he's not an individual nutter, he's a nutter could well have got away with what he did or dealt with leniently if he lived in another country. I never want it to happen in this and by not tackling it head on my fear is it will. If you think I'm being sensationalist, I think you're being naive. Haven't we tackled it head on by sending him to prison though? What is it you want to see us do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent_white Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 No you don't. Not to anyone sensible anyway. If you self-censor like that you'll end up saying nothing of value. Which is the path the left has chosen in this country. I didn't. Many on the left are, but I didn't accuse you of it. Which has been done where by anyone serious? Pointing out what is obvious should not be avoided in case you are accused of whipping up hatred. It is obvious that a certain interpretation of Islam inspired these people to murder this woman, inspired those men to kill Lee Rigby and inspired the men who blew up the police officer this morning 300 yards from where I sit this minute. It is ridiculous and deliberately ignorant of the facts to suggest otherwise. The squeamishness over criticism of Islam for fear of being misunderstood or upsetting people is why almost nothing has been done about the extremists who have found the UK the best country in Europe in which to operate. That's something to be proud of, isn't it? So let's move this one step forward and back to the point I raised earlier on. What would you have us do that we don't do at the moment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no balls Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Haven't we tackled it head on by sending him to prison though? What is it you want to see us do? Get deeper into why it is happening in the UK, and we know it is. It needs to be proactive, not reactive. I was reading about Theresa & Gove having a tiff about tackling radical islam in schools. I'm not a fan of either by the way, but if this is happening, it angers & saddens me. Fuck the kid gloves, let's not upset anyone's personal beliefs as that probably wont work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweep Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Hornets nest of hatred bit over the top Indeed, more a wasps den of disdain methinks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent_white Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Get deeper into why it is happening in the UK, and we know it is. It needs to be proactive, not reactive. I was reading about Theresa & Gove having a tiff about tackling radical islam in schools. I'm not a fan of either by the way, but if this is happening, it angers & saddens me. Fuck the kid gloves, let's not upset anyone's personal beliefs as that probably wont work I get where you're coming from, but specifically what do you want to see happening? Cameras in Mosques? Registration for Muslims? Forced re-education? It's hard to think of anything practical we could do which won't turn us into something resembling a totalitarian state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not in Crawley Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Indeed, more a wasps den of disdain methinks Honey pot of hatred? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not in Crawley Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 I get where you're coming from, but specifically what do you want to see happening? Cameras in Mosques? Registration for Muslims? Forced re-education? It's hard to think of anything practical we could do which won't turn us into something resembling a totalitarian state. Its all getting a bit V for Vendetta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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