Labour Leadership Debate

[Whites man]

Well done you!!i could have sworn you were a working class but ok person who votes Tory because they've done alright for themselves and hates where they're from. Glad to be proved wrong

So if you are working class and make a few £ and vote Tory there is some self loathing thing going on.

 

If you are working class and make a few £ and vote Labour you are a champagne socialist.

 

Just leaves staying on your sofa and not bothering then.

[chief wiggum]

Nobody who's done alright for themselves votes labour for self interest. Everybody who's done alright for themselves who votes Tory does, but it's always false promises. Unless you're a banker, a 'high net worth individual' or a member of the aristocracy you will get shafted like the rest of us.

[Winchester White]

Chief you are talking bollocks pal. This is the most centrist conservative government ever. Yes benefits are being cut but the low paid workers are now paying zero tax on their earnings or will do by next year. Even Blair didn't get anywhere near that.

[Winchester White]

I am not a tory btw, I just see it as it is.

[bolty58]

Chief, how old are you? Do you remember the militant left times when we sat in the dark and shivering through Christmas with rat infested rubbish bags piling up on the streets? Somehow, I doubt it.

 

It all comes down to which philosophy you buy into. Free enterprise fuelling natural human aspiration thereby spurring achievement through hard work or the regularly failed socialist model which rewards the feckless who just happens to have the loudest voice and, by the same machinery, stifles those who would otherwise excel (and, in the process, create jobs and wealth for millions).

 

There will always be adherents to this mythical socialist utopia idea. They are most often young and idealistic and, as age and life experience mould thought processes, realisation sets in that it just does not work due in a very large part to human nature.

[frank_spencer]

Chief you are talking bollocks pal. This is the most centrist conservative government ever. Yes benefits are being cut but the low paid workers are now paying zero tax on their earnings or will do by next year. Even Blair didn't get anywhere near that.

IIRC The zero tax for low earners was a key part of the libdems forming the coalition. They're obligated to follow it through to the agreed conclusion.

[chief wiggum]

Chief, how old are you? Do you remember the militant left times when we sat in the dark and shivering through Christmas with rat infested rubbish bags piling up on the streets? Somehow, I doubt it.

 

It all comes down to which philosophy you buy into. Free enterprise fuelling natural human aspiration thereby spurring achievement through hard work or the regularly failed socialist model which rewards the feckless who just happens to have the loudest voice and, by the same machinery, stifles those who would otherwise excel (and, in the process, create jobs and wealth for millions).

 

There will always be adherents to this mythical socialist utopia idea. They are most often young and idealistic and, as age and life experience mould thought processes, realisation sets in that it just does not work due in a very large part to human nature.

I'm 47, and I remember all the above, as I remember this country's manufacturing base decimated by an ideological attack on any group of workers having the temerity to try and defend their pay and conditions. I've no issue with folk who do well for themselves through their own efforts, good luck to them, they should be supported. I just don't see why the folk at the bottom of the pile should have to be fucked over because a bunch of crooked bankers put other people's money on red and it landed on black

[no balls]

I'm 47, and I remember all the above, as I remember this country's manufacturing base decimated by an ideological attack on any group of workers having the temerity to try and defend their pay and conditions.

As someone who had to deal with unions in the textile industry, I can assure this statement is completely untrue.

[Carlos]

We should have stayed in the 70s, manufacturing stuff and shit.

[bgoefc]

We should have stayed in the 70s, manufacturing stuff and shit.

 

no, but we should not have decimated manufacturing either. Most other Western nations have protected their manufacturing thus ending up with a far better balance between finance, service, manufacturing and agricultural and a more geographic spread of those.

[Carlos]

People don't like accepting we are a country of workshy scroungers whose economy is propped up by London. Look at the shit we were manufacturing, Japan overtook us in technology in the late 70s, Germany on quality. Fucking hell, we couldn't make a car that lasted more than a couple of years before turning to rust.

[Winchester White]

IIRC The zero tax for low earners was a key part of the libdems forming the coalition. They're obligated to follow it through to the agreed conclusion.

Yep, and now we have a Conservative Government rather than a ConLib coalition what did they do? Increase the limit you start paying tax even more. Tony Blair was a master at convincing the gulliable that he was looking after the low paid yet they have benefited more over the last 5 years than he ever gave them.

[Winchester White]

I am too young to remember but what did Thatcher do exactly that killed manufacturing in Britain?

[MalcolmW]

at least the tories have capped care costs

 

not sure how many northerners will benefit

 

1 The cap introduction has been put back from April 2016 to April 2020 (just before the election!)..

 

2 The cap will be against council costs. If private care costs more the excess over council costs will not be met.

 

3 Food is extra.

[Boby Brno]

I am too young to remember but what did Thatcher do exactly that killed manufacturing in Britain?

She basically encouraged competition. Recognising that we lived in a global economy, she would not support industries that were producing crap at inflated prices. NB is right about the unions and their resistance to change. It happened in Engineering as well. I remember the stalling of investment in CNC machine tools because of the Union's objections. The Germans, Japanese, French, Italians etc were years ahead of us in that regard.

Breaking the unions to allow companies the freedom to invest and grow was fundamental to her philosophy.

[Casino]

1 The cap introduction has been put back from April 2016 to April 2020 (just before the election!)..

 

2 The cap will be against council costs. If private care costs more the excess over council costs will not be met.

 

3 Food is extra.

 

thanks, but even so, it is a step forward, however small

 

and the bold bit seems fair enough

[bgoefc]

She basically encouraged competition. Recognising that we lived in a global economy, she would not support industries that were producing crap at inflated prices. NB is right about the unions and their resistance to change. It happened in Engineering as well. I remember the stalling of investment in CNC machine tools because of the Union's objections. The Germans, Japanese, French, Italians etc were years ahead of us in that regard.

Breaking the unions to allow companies the freedom to invest and grow was fundamental to her philosophy.

 

I agree with that but I worked in manufacturing for 32 years, many as a Director. Therefore I also saw the negative side of the "get rich quick mentality" that the 80's UK business culture brought. Unlike these foreign competitors you name, UK based investors and management did not and probably still have, no interest in anything less than a five and in most cases a three year payback.

 

I have personally profited from three "Venture capitalist" leveraged buy ins in my time. However, getting blood out of the stone and "sweating the assets" in three year turn around plans simply involve losing people costs and end up in unsustainable operations in the long term, when the VC has sold the business on.

 

The German companies I used to deal with did things with a much longer time frame in mind. Their management actually felt responsible for what the companies would look like in 10, 5 and 20 years time. 

 

At the end of the day its down to how one gauges success. My view is one has to look at more than simply the bottom line of a company balance sheet.

Edited September 27, 2015 by bgoefc

[MalcolmW]

thanks, but even so, it is a step forward, however small

 

and the bold bit seems fair enough

 

Fair enough - but how many councils will actually have anywhere near enough provision for their areas needs?

[Boby Brno]

I agree with that but I worked in manufacturing for 32 years, many as a Director. Therefore I also saw the negative side of the "get rich quick mentality" that the 80's UK business culture brought. Unlike these foreign competitors you name, UK based investors and management did not and probably still have, no interest in anything less than a five and in most cases a three year payback.

 

I have personally profited from three "Venture capitalist" leveraged buy ins in my time. However, getting blood out of the stone and "sweating the assets" in three year turn around plans simply involve losing people costs and end up in unsustainable operations in the long term, when the VC has sold the business on.

 

The German companies I used to deal with did things with a much longer time frame in mind. Their management actually felt responsible for what the companies would look like in 10, 5 and 20 years time.

 

At the end of the day its down to how one gauges success. My view is one has to look at more than simply the bottom line of a company balance sheet.

There is no doubt that capitalism is far from perfect and although Maggie was blamed for all the worst aspects of it, she had the right idea when accepting that Britain had to change to remain competitive in a global market. It took a long time and many companies dissapeared ( including the company I worked 23 years for) but the change was necessary in my opinion and hopefully, this country can become a leader in world manufacturing again.

[kent_white]

There is no doubt that capitalism is far from perfect and although Maggie was blamed for all the worst aspects of it, she had the right idea when accepting that Britain had to change to remain competitive in a global market. It took a long time and many companies dissapeared ( including the company I worked 23 years for) but the change was necessary in my opinion and hopefully, this country can become a leader in world manufacturing again.

Really? I hope you're right but we've basically sold out to the banking and service industries haven't we?

[frank_spencer]

Really? I hope you're right but we've basically sold out to the banking and service industries haven't we?

That and the cheapest products sells to the majority over quality.

People won't pay a tenner for made in Britain over a fiver for made in bangalore.

[only1swanny]

That and the cheapest products sells to the majority over quality.

People won't pay a tenner for made in Britain over a fiver for made in bangalore.

 

Most wouldn't pay less simply because it's made in Britain..

 

Prime example.. Rover cars

[Boby Brno]

Really? I hope you're right but we've basically sold out to the banking and service industries haven't we?

Pretty sure the UK car industry is in a healthy state and there are lots of other economic indicators that would confirm my opinion. It's still not enough but heading in the right direction.

Remember, the U.K. became a great nation because of our manufacturing base. It wasn't because of Social Workers or Firemen or Local Government Officials etc. It was because we actually made things that we sold to the rest of the world that then enabled us to afford Social Workers and Firemen and Local Government Officials etc.

[no balls]

Really? I hope you're right but we've basically sold out to the banking and service industries haven't we?

To me the two issues are autonomous. British industry, well the one I was in, was struggling and instead of the unions and companies working together the unions had a notion the bosses were just trying to shaft the staff. No, they were trying to find the best way to keep the places going by making money & with that their members would still have jobs. Some of the conversations I had with union people would've been comical if it wasn't for the gravity of the situation. It's ok though as they all still have their union pension.

[frank_spencer]

Pretty sure the UK car industry is in a healthy state

There's no such thing anymore unless you count the company that makes the black cabs or Morgan.

 

Jaguar, land rover, rover/mg, rolls Royce etc all foreign owned.