Guest Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 I wonder how the EU cope with other external borders? Quote
Guest Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 3 hours ago, Moon boy said: I thought that might be your answer So you don’t think Brexit can’t go ahead because there is no solution to the Irish border? There is a simple way for Brexit to go ahead. Its called the negotiated withdrawal agreement. Or another agreement that maintains regulatory alignment and a customs union across the Irish border - but that alone was initially rejected out of hand by the Tory party and the DUP. Which is why we asked the EU for the WA whole UK customs solution. Quote
Carlos Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 Working with the sort of technology that could possibly but used in this situation, I'm guessing there is just a workflow with barcodes that hooks in to a HMRC system, I can't get my head around how it will be implemented at every single point the border can be crossed. GPS tracking on every item? You can tell someone is bullshitting when they talk of technology without drilling into the detail. What technology? Quote
Guest Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said: Was never a party issue. Free votes etc. Yes their not backing it has been unhelpful (and in my opinion wrong) but their view still represents a version of leaving. Not difficult to understand is it? If you want to use the traitor tag, throw it at those who have stood on a manifesto to leave and yet seek not to. They could have rendered the erg irrelevant. A marked difference. Their manifesto statement was they wanted to leave with a negotiated deal that protected workers rights and jobs and access to the SM. People seem to forget this. They would support their version of a deal. That is no different to the ERG saying "we want this Brexit, not that Brexit". Quote
Sweep Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, boltondiver said: I wonder how the EU cope with other external borders? This partially answers, but obviously not fully https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44054594 Quote
Tonge moor green jacket Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 3 hours ago, Spider said: It’s not intellect, it’s knowing people directly affected on the Irish border. If you think I’m condescending, speak to some of the plumbers over there who have lost half their work for autumn, whilst condescending twats over on the mainland keep saying “it’ll all be ok”. If your wages were 50% down I’m not sure you’d be sat quite so comfortably. One or two of them would read your posts and want to rip your throat out. Things MIGHT turn out ok, no-one really knows, but as of today, this week and for the next few months, blokes over there are facing a seriously shit Christmas. its actually nothing personal, but you just don’t know what you’re on about and it makes you look a bit daft. You see it's all well and good using your experience, but when a chap with even more knowledge and experience talks and says it's really nothing like as bad or difficult, his opinion is lost or ignored. Just the other day, a link was posted to an interview with a chap involved with much of the gfa process and experience and knowledge of the situation. Perhaps we should follow his suggestions? Quote
Sweep Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 Just now, bwfcfan5 said: "we want this Brexit, not that Brexit". This will be the case no matter what we end up with, Farage has already stated that anything other than a clean break now is unacceptable, so he'll be kicking off even if we do somehow manage to agree some sort of deal, especially if it's similar to the TM deal that was offered up, and agreed by the EU several months ago Quote
Guest Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, boltondiver said: I wonder how the EU cope with other external borders? You don't need to wonder...the BBC did a handy analysis of all EU/Non-EU borders. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44054594 In short there is no border that is frictionless, that doesn't involve checks and delays. Technology speeds the process up - it doesn't remove it. Nothing comes close to the situation between NI and Ireland now - as in - a completely frictionless border. Quote
Guest Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 (edited) Whilst we're offering up facts - lets remind ourselves about the vote leave lot - and their statements about trade and a deal during the campaign. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/29/what-vote-leave-leaders-really-said-about-no-deal-brexit Gove: Quote “Outside the EU, we would still benefit from the free trade zone which stretches from Iceland to the Russian border,” he said. “But we wouldn’t have all the EU regulations which cost our economy £600m every week.” Johnson Quote “I put it to you, all those who say that there would be barriers to trade with Europe if we were to do a Brexit, do you seriously believe that they would put up tariffs against UK produce of any kind, when they know how much they want to sell us their cake, their champagne, their cheese from France? It is totally and utterly absurd.” Raab Quote “The idea that Britain would be apocalyptically off the cliff edge if we left the EU is silly. And my favourite from good old Boris - after the referendum result - a classic! Quote [We] who agreed with this majority verdict must accept that it was not entirely overwhelming.”“EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU. British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down,” he said. “The only change – and it will not come in any great rush – is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU’s extraordinary and opaque system of legislation.” Lets add former Chairman of Vote Leave Quote “The OECD states that: ‘trade with the EU and other countries would initially revert to a WTO MFN-basis’. This is a highly flawed assumption that not even the IN campaign seriously contemplates as a realistic possibility. Leading pro-EU campaigners have admitted the UK will strike a free trade agreement if we Vote Leave.” Edited October 9, 2019 by bwfcfan5 Quote
Tonge moor green jacket Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said: Their manifesto statement was they wanted to leave with a negotiated deal that protected workers rights and jobs and access to the SM. People seem to forget this. They would support their version of a deal. That is no different to the ERG saying "we want this Brexit, not that Brexit". Some would. What about those who categorically stated otherwise? What about labour's so called deal, with its 6 tests that cannot be met, as admitted to by one of their front benchers (can't remember who). The same labour who accuse the pm of producing a proposal deliberately to fail. As MPs in parliament, who put down a law that says we leave with a deal or no deal, sooner or later they have to accept one or the other, even if they don't particularly like either. Deliberately working against their own decisions gives them no credibility whatsoever. Its all turned into a party political issue now when it never was, and that makes it much more difficult. Quote
Guest Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said: Some would. What about those who categorically stated otherwise? What about labour's so called deal, with its 6 tests that cannot be met, as admitted to by one of their front benchers (can't remember who). The same labour who accuse the pm of producing a proposal deliberately to fail. As MPs in parliament, who put down a law that says we leave with a deal or no deal, sooner or later they have to accept one or the other, even if they don't particularly like either. Deliberately working against their own decisions gives them no credibility whatsoever. Its all turned into a party political issue now when it never was, and that makes it much more difficult. Labour could more easily obtain a deal because they aren't putting political red lines up. But the Brexiteers would say "that's not Brexit" - but see comments above - they lied or are lying now. One or the other. Quote
Ani Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 We voted to leave. That vote although have no legal standing morally commits us to leaving. The role of government is to negotiate a suitable deal. The role of parliament is to verify or challenge that deal. As part of that process parliament has said no deal is not acceptable because of the damage 99% said it would do before the vote. If Boris now tries to push no deal through he will breaking or circumnavigating the law. I am sure all the defenders of democracy on here will agree that is not acceptable ? Quote
Ani Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 12 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said: Some would. What about those who categorically stated otherwise? What about labour's so called deal, with its 6 tests that cannot be met, as admitted to by one of their front benchers (can't remember who). The same labour who accuse the pm of producing a proposal deliberately to fail. As MPs in parliament, who put down a law that says we leave with a deal or no deal, sooner or later they have to accept one or the other, even if they don't particularly like either. Deliberately working against their own decisions gives them no credibility whatsoever. Its all turned into a party political issue now when it never was, and that makes it much more difficult. The law says no deal is not acceptable. So you are right to say they should not accept one. Quote
Sweep Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 Anyway, it's looking like we'll need to ask for a delay - I think most people think this will happen (obviously except Moon Boy, who still says we're definitely leaving on 31st October) - so if we do need to ask for an extension, where does this leave Johnson? - he said he wouldn't/couldn't ask for an extension, and he'd rather be "dead in a ditch" than ask for an extension - presumably, if he's forced into it, by law, then he either has to kill himself whilst stood in a ditch, or resign?!?! Quote
Tonge moor green jacket Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 15 minutes ago, Ani said: The law says no deal is not acceptable. So you are right to say they should not accept one. No it doesn't. No deal is still the default. The Benn act only referes to the end of Oct and demands the pm ask for an extension. After that extension were back to the same position. Quote
Tonge moor green jacket Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 7 minutes ago, Sweep said: Anyway, it's looking like we'll need to ask for a delay - I think most people think this will happen (obviously except Moon Boy, who still says we're definitely leaving on 31st October) - so if we do need to ask for an extension, where does this leave Johnson? - he said he wouldn't/couldn't ask for an extension, and he'd rather be "dead in a ditch" than ask for an extension - presumably, if he's forced into it, by law, then he either has to kill himself whilst stood in a ditch, or resign?!?! Or write another letter saying we don't actually want one? Think malc first raised this possibility ages ago, dunno if it would stand like, but they have either got something up their sleeve or they're playing one huge bluff. Quote
Guest Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 9 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said: Or write another letter saying we don't actually want one? Think malc first raised this possibility ages ago, dunno if it would stand like, but they have either got something up their sleeve or they're playing one huge bluff. But the EU know there will be a GE shortly. So they will likely even if they receive 2 letters grant an extension because they know a GE offers a chance of a new parliamentary make up or government. Look at it this way they could refuse and go through no deal or take their chances that they can agree something following a GE - and the worst case for them is it just delays no deal. I think the two letter plan only worked really if Johnson had retained his parliamentary "majority". Then the EU would be faced with the choice of delay for no reason or cut their losses. Quote
DirtySanchez Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 59 minutes ago, Sweep said: Anyway, it's looking like we'll need to ask for a delay - I think most people think this will happen (obviously except Moon Boy, who still says we're definitely leaving on 31st October) - so if we do need to ask for an extension, where does this leave Johnson? - he said he wouldn't/couldn't ask for an extension, and he'd rather be "dead in a ditch" than ask for an extension - presumably, if he's forced into it, by law, then he either has to kill himself whilst stood in a ditch, or resign?!?! He also said he would lie down in front of bulldozers to prevent Heathrow expansion Let's see how that one pans out Quote
leigh white Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 49 minutes ago, DirtySanchez said: He also said he would lie down in front of bulldozers to prevent Heathrow expansion Let's see how that one pans out If it's a JCB bulldozer, it could run him over and dig his ditch at the same time. Quote
Casino Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 4 hours ago, boltondiver said: I wonder how the EU cope with other external borders? its pretty irrelevant the island of ireland is a unique case Quote
Tonge moor green jacket Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, Casino said: its pretty irrelevant the island of ireland is a unique case It is 100%. Listening to Barnier earlier (the translator in fairness) one particular phrase did make me wonder how much he believed that. That said, I think it was just more of the verbal tug of war going on across the channel. Quote
Moon boy Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 5 hours ago, Sweep said: Anyway, it's looking like we'll need to ask for a delay - I think most people think this will happen (obviously except Moon Boy, who still says we're definitely leaving on 31st October) - so if we do need to ask for an extension, where does this leave Johnson? - he said he wouldn't/couldn't ask for an extension, and he'd rather be "dead in a ditch" than ask for an extension - presumably, if he's forced into it, by law, then he either has to kill himself whilst stood in a ditch, or resign?!?! Don’t quote me, I’m ‘daft’ Quote
Sweep Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, Moon boy said: Don’t quote me, I’m ‘daft’ Fair enough. Anyway, I don't think you're daft at all, misinformed, overwhelmed and terribly confused by the whole Brexit process yes, but daft, certainly not. Quote
Spider Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 8 minutes ago, Moon boy said: Don’t quote me, I’m ‘daft’ 2 minutes ago, Sweep said: Fair enough. Anyway, I don't think you're daft at all, misinformed, overwhelmed and terribly confused by the whole Brexit process yes, but daft, certainly not. What Sweep said. its nowt personal, I don’t know you. You just need to do a bit more research. Miami’s your man. Quote
Moon boy Posted October 9, 2019 Posted October 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Spider said: What Sweep said. its nowt personal, I don’t know you. You just need to do a bit more research. Miami’s your man. Ho ho ho, your both delusional but good luck to both of you, I wish you all the best xx Quote
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