mickbrown Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 40 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said: Flexible in approach, and willing to compromise in the wider interest? Or moral free, self serving charlatan? Take your pick. The only interest that concerns him is his own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Tonge moor green jacket Posted September 3, 2019 Site Supporter Share Posted September 3, 2019 40 minutes ago, mickbrown said: Or moral free, self serving charlatan? Take your pick. The only interest that concerns him is his own. He fails as PM he fails in himself. No doubt he'll do well afterwards on the back of it, but I genuinely don't believe anyone becomes PM purely in a self serving capacity. Too much exposure and scrutiny. Look at pictures of Blair before and after for example. Takes it out of them. It also signifies their last significant role in politics, the beginning of the end of you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Winchester White Posted September 3, 2019 Site Supporter Share Posted September 3, 2019 Boris and Gove were the heads of the vote leave campaign. They both said we would leave with a deal. Folk can't then say it is undemocratic to block no deal by our soverign parliament when what was promised has not been delivered. What a mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Tonge moor green jacket Posted September 3, 2019 Site Supporter Share Posted September 3, 2019 Then give them the chance to get that good deal. Without hands tied behind their backs. If they fail, judge then. Otherwise the cycle continues, and the economy continues to hold its breath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwfcfan5 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 41 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said: Then give them the chance to get that good deal. Without hands tied behind their backs. If they fail, judge then. Otherwise the cycle continues, and the economy continues to hold its breath. The problem is that the only way they say they can get a good deal is if we leave with no deal... And currently their demands for what constitutes a good deal would mean the EU and Ireland compromising on trade and international law. Which are wholly unreasonable demands. You have their main advisor saying that any negotiations are a sham and the Attorney General saying that the demands will never be agreed to. So - if you "let them get on with it" they deliver a no deal exit - and IF its as bad as several government analyses suggest we're then buggered as a result. It feels a bit like a coup - "don't worry everyone we'll never leave without a deal" to "only form of proper Brexit is a no deal one". That's where we've gone. And if you can bypass parliamentary scrutiny then - pretty much anything goes. Boris is an affront to our democracy, even someone who wants Brexit must see that. Think of what could happen in the future - a government you don't agree with could just decide to ignore parliament and do what they like - and the safeguards will have been ripped away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 6 hours ago, boltondiver said: Boris is a liberal, not that far away from Blair Schools, hospitals, police etc Brexit isn’t far right, it’s just democracy Johnson's personal position is irrelevant right now as what was once called the 'radical fringe' has now taken over the party, just in the same way momentum has a vice like grip on the Labour party. You may not recognise the shift as the party is trying to deliver the agenda you want but it has alienated so many traditional Tory voters, such as myself, that we no longer recognise it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 12 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said: Johnson's personal position is irrelevant right now as what was once called the 'radical fringe' has now taken over the party, just in the same way momentum has a vice like grip on the Labour party. You may not recognise the shift as the party is trying to deliver the agenda you want but it has alienated so many traditional Tory voters, such as myself, that we no longer recognise it. You clearly don’t understand his position, or mine, aside of Brexit, then! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Do Labour want a GE? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 9 minutes ago, boltondiver said: You clearly don’t understand his position, or mine, aside of Brexit, then! So are you happy that Johnson is threatening deselection and expulsion from the party if MPs don't align with him on Brexit? I don't like his rhetoric, his tactics and his lies but some may like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 8 minutes ago, boltondiver said: Do Labour want a GE? No, not until No deal is off the table. It would be madness for them to fall into Johnson's trap at the moment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon boy Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 28 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said: So are you happy that Johnson is threatening deselection and expulsion from the party if MPs don't align with him on Brexit? I don't like his rhetoric, his tactics and his lies but some may like it. Don’t vote Tory then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Carlos Posted September 3, 2019 Moderators Share Posted September 3, 2019 Some cunt has picked a great day to bury the HS2 news, shame people are aware of this shithousing tactic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 8 minutes ago, Moon boy said: Don’t vote Tory then I'm not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon boy Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 1 hour ago, bwfcfan5 said: The problem is that the only way they say they can get a good deal is if we leave with no deal... And currently their demands for what constitutes a good deal would mean the EU and Ireland compromising on trade and international law. Which are wholly unreasonable demands. You have their main advisor saying that any negotiations are a sham and the Attorney General saying that the demands will never be agreed to. So - if you "let them get on with it" they deliver a no deal exit - and IF its as bad as several government analyses suggest we're then buggered as a result. It feels a bit like a coup - "don't worry everyone we'll never leave without a deal" to "only form of proper Brexit is a no deal one". That's where we've gone. And if you can bypass parliamentary scrutiny then - pretty much anything goes. Boris is an affront to our democracy, even someone who wants Brexit must see that. Think of what could happen in the future - a government you don't agree with could just decide to ignore parliament and do what they like - and the safeguards will have been ripped away. Your last paragraph, How can be Boris be an affront to Democracy? He’s the elected leader of an Elected Government, How can a rabble of opposition Politician’s with the help of the so called Speaker/Referee allow them to overthrow the Government of the day, you really have opened the flood gates for anarchy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjhb Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Carlos said: Some cunt has picked a great day to bury the HS2 news, shame people are aware of this shithousing tactic. Shame they couldn't have just cancelled it. Maybe by 2040 we will have trains equivalent to what they had in Japan in the 1980s then. Edited September 3, 2019 by jmjhb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwfcfan5 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 6 minutes ago, Moon boy said: Your last paragraph, How can be Boris be an affront to Democracy? He’s the elected leader of an Elected Government, How can a rabble of opposition Politician’s with the help of the so called Speaker/Referee allow them to overthrow the Government of the day, you really have opened the flood gates for anarchy MPs are elected representatives. We elect MPs not a government. A government forms from elected MPs. The MPs have to use their judgement to do what they think is best for their electorate. You talk as though we have a presidential system. We don't. If a PM can just bypass the elected HoC representatives but isn't directly elected ever - then how on earth is that democracy or sovereignty or any of the words used? Lets imagine a reverse and we have a minority Corbyn government who want to do something mental and just ignore parliament in the process - you'd be going crazy. You can't pick and choose democracy or sovereignty. You either accept it or you don't. We had a referendum - we were told we'd get a great deal in weeks. That hasn't transpired. But don't trash democracy because some people want to protect us from chaos and potential ruin (in their eyes). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 https://julianhjessop.com/2019/08/24/no-this-still-isnt-a-sterling-crisis/amp/?__twitter_impression=true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 16 minutes ago, Moon boy said: Your last paragraph, How can be Boris be an affront to Democracy? He’s the elected leader of an Elected Government, How can a rabble of opposition Politician’s with the help of the so called Speaker/Referee allow them to overthrow the Government of the day, you really have opened the flood gates for anarchy It's called 'sovereignty of parliament', you know that thing we have all been fighting to maintain over the last 3 years. And Johnson now wants to bypass it to force No Deal through, slightly ironic don't you agree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon boy Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 5 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said: MPs are elected representatives. We elect MPs not a government. A government forms from elected MPs. The MPs have to use their judgement to do what they think is best for their electorate. You talk as though we have a presidential system. We don't. If a PM can just bypass the elected HoC representatives but isn't directly elected ever - then how on earth is that democracy or sovereignty or any of the words used? Lets imagine a reverse and we have a minority Corbyn government who want to do something mental and just ignore parliament in the process - you'd be going crazy. You can't pick and choose democracy or sovereignty. You either accept it or you don't. We had a referendum - we were told we'd get a great deal in weeks. That hasn't transpired. But don't trash democracy because some people want to protect us from chaos and potential ruin (in their eyes). Previous ‘Impartial ‘ Speakers would never have allowed this rabble to take charge of the order paper, Bercow is a Remainer and is being allowed to influence Parliament to the detriment of the elected Government and 17.5mill voters, this will not end well and you are using your own personal preferences to justify their actions, you must know deep down you are on the wrong side of history Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwfcfan5 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Moon boy said: Previous ‘Impartial ‘ Speakers would never have allowed this rabble to take charge of the order paper, Bercow is a Remainer and is being allowed to influence Parliament to the detriment of the elected Government and 17.5mill voters, this will not end well and you are using your own personal preferences to justify their actions, you must know deep down you are on the wrong side of history Wow. It doesn't matter what the speaker does. Its a parliamentary vote. If our ELECTED representatives vote for or against something that is our democracy and sovereignty in action. If a government (a minority one at that) bypasses that it is not democratic. However, you try and pretend it is. Also no deal has never had a majority in any single poll - not even close. So to pretend the majority of the county support no deal - is baseless. If you think that lets vote on it and see. Otherwise this is simply an anti-democratic ideological government trashing our democratic processes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, Moon boy said: Previous ‘Impartial ‘ Speakers would never have allowed this rabble to take charge of the order paper, Bercow is a Remainer and is being allowed to influence Parliament to the detriment of the elected Government and 17.5mill voters, this will not end well and you are using your own personal preferences to justify their actions, you must know deep down you are on the wrong side of history Wow, so Johnson wants to bypass parliament completely and you think that is acceptable?? Bercow wants parliament to have its say and not to be ignored, that's democracy unless you hanker for a dictatorship, you can't have it both ways Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Tonge moor green jacket Posted September 3, 2019 Site Supporter Share Posted September 3, 2019 Parliament have had a say, and would do so again should a new deal be brought back. Parliament has continually failed to achieve consensus and shows no sign of changing in that regard. We need to get the fuck out asap. If a party wants to, make going back in part of their manifesto and push it at an election. At least MPs are then standing on something they believe in and aren't hiding behind the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salford Trotter Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 5 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said: Parliament have had a say, and would do so again should a new deal be brought back. Parliament has continually failed to achieve consensus and shows no sign of changing in that regard. We need to get the fuck out asap. If a party wants to, make going back in part of their manifesto and push it at an election. At least MPs are then standing on something they believe in and aren't hiding behind the opposite. No matter how crap the deal was, there was a deal on the table to leave the EU and Johnson voted with Corbyn, twice, to reject it! He played the game just as lots of others did so they are all to blame for this mess. I believe there is not a majority in the electorate for No Deal so quite rightly parliamentarians are doing what they believe is in the best interests of the country. You may not agree with that so the next GE will be the country's opportunity to give their verdict on that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frank_spencer Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 One thing I never see mentioned is if MPs have looked at the evidence of a No Deal and think it will be a terrible idea surely if they went along with it they'd be negligent in their duties to do what's best for their electorate? If the leavers want to get the numbers behind their ideas produce evidence to support their cause and present it to the MPs. If all the evidence showed how great a No Deal would be then there wouldn't be this brouhaha. I'm still of the opinion that Brexit is a terrible idea and is getting worse as the weeks/months/years go by. But as things stand it's the wish of the electorate and the leavers have had 3yrs to come up with a viable plan and have failed time and time again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Salford Trotter said: No, not until No deal is off the table. It would be madness for them to fall into Johnson's trap at the moment But he continues to ask for one..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.