No Henderson in the provisional squad 

40 minutes ago, Wanderlust said:

OK - I'll bite.

What is never mentioned these days is how lucky England were in 1966 on top of everything being in our favour and how controversial the win actually was throughout the world, if not in England with our media - and I'm not just talking about the Russian linesman in the final.

First of all, there were only 16 teams in the finals - which was boycotted by the African nations due to the group winners being told by FIFA they had to play an extra pre-finals qualification round, so that let in North Korea and Portugal (their first finals)

All 6 England matches were played at Wembley - massive advantage.

Our win against Argentina in the quarter final is still referred to in South America as "the robbery of the century". Captain Rattin (slaughtered in the English press) was sent off for approaching the German referee (who didn't speak Spanish) about a foul given against a team mate and pointing to his captain's armband and gesticulating to ask for a translator. The ref - and this was before the days of yellow/red cards - sent him off and was reported to later say that it was because he didn't like Rattin's demeanour. WTF??? Imagine that these days! Only after this happened that that Rattin refused to leave and it got nasty. Argentinian press claimed collusion between the Europeans (of the 26 officials in the 66 WC, 20 were European) and the British press claimed the Argentinians were animals (Ramsey). Our winning goal against their 10 men was offside but allowed to stand - embarassing but we were happy to take it. Ramsey's comments on the Argies was reported throughout South America and was the catalyst for the ill-feeling against England that we felt 4 years later in Mexico and still persists. Never an issue before Ramsey.

We were  lucky against Portugal with golden boot winner Eusabio (9 goals BTW) coming very close on several occasions.

The final itself wasn't without controversy.

England's total of eleven goals scored in six games set a new record low for average goals per game scored by a World Cup winning team.

All in all, Ramsey benefited from the 66 WC being a smaller tournament, some big slices of luck, playing all the games at home in front of very partisan crowds and some "favourable" refereeing - not that I'm complaining because it was wonderful - but these are factors that should be brought into play if you want to make an objective, rather than rose-tinted comparison with what Southgate has (consistently) achieved.

I know Ramsey is deified and any criticism is vilified, but they are the facts rather than criticism.

 

 

 

Nobody cares.

6 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Nobody cares.

Bit harsh.

Good  post for me. Puts a different perspective on 66 and illustrates that - if we overcome the odds and actually win it on Sunday - history will not give a fuck about how shit we've been in many of the games.

 

If non-English folk are moaning about the penalty, then I'll moan about Dumfries not getting a second yellow, for a blatant foul on Foden who was racing through on goal after robbing him. 10 men with an hour left to play. We'd have walloped them.

The ref bottled that one!

Imagine we actually win this tournament and GS receives a knighthood.

He will rightfully don the biggest smuggest grin of all time every time he is interviewed by the media as he transcends “Southgate” and becomes “Sir Gareth” leader of the three lions to glory.

Beat Spain in the final and end it on a high Gareth. God knows I and every England fan alike has doubted you at some point but after that performance and result. Wow, we are all behind you more than ever!

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🦁🦁🦁🏆🏆🏆

2 hours ago, gonzo said:

Nobody cares.

Especially for his fucking epistles. You start to lose the will to live.

3 hours ago, gonzo said:

Was a captains performance for me. No headlines or wonder strikes. Just box to box, wing to wing adding cover and just being a big fuck off presence.

Like you allude to, folk see his headlines for Real and expect him bowling about like Ronaldo every time he plays.

 

He did help prevent them raiding down their right, but I still think his energy levels are down. He looks shot.

Just hope they can all rest up well- Spain have had an extra day- and recharge their muscles and minds for one last push.

There's no way Southgate is making wholesale changes, and apart from Shaw possibly starting, I reckon the same team will be out there first.

7 minutes ago, Mantra said:

Imagine we actually win this tournament and GS receives a knighthood.

He will rightfully don the biggest smuggest grin of all time every time he is interviewed by the media as he transcends “Southgate” and becomes “Sir Gareth” leader of the three lions to glory.

Beat Spain in the final and end it on a high Gareth. God knows I and every England fan alike has doubted you at some point but after that performance and result. Wow, we are all behind you more than ever!

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🦁🦁🦁🏆🏆🏆

He is any-fucking-way. They should do a DMB and sack him just before the final. 

He had better fucking win it. I am waiting with my "Who is on the losing side now, cunt?" if he doesn't. 

Ruined my enjoyment of England games yon mon. There is always around 1% of me thinking "well if we lose, we are one step closer to getting shut". It should not be this way. But it is.

Shaw in from the start.

Bring on Watkins to run at tired legs or Toney to bully them and hold it up in the 2nd half depending on what's needed 

1 minute ago, bolty58 said:

He is any-fucking-way. They should do a DMB and sack him just before the final. 

He had better fucking win it. I am waiting with my "Who is on the losing side now, cunt?" if he doesn't. 

Ruined my enjoyment of England games yon mon. There is always around 1% of me thinking "well if we lose, we are one step closer to getting shut". It should not be this way. But it is.

Pretty sure he's going anyway, so might as well forget all that now. 

Win it please, and if he gets his official accolade then I won't begrudge it.

 

2 hours ago, gonzo said:

Nobody cares.

Apart from Bolty and the legion of flag shaggers who eyes tear up every time Ramsey and 66 is mentioned - and then use it to beat up every England manager since.

And as Wakey says it goes to show with a bit of luck and some favourable refereeing it can be done and the only folk who will remember it will be those who felt hard done by - as we do about Maradona etc.

Wrt Lusty's essay, some interesting stories there, but they are just that. Non-provable tales of bias.

Maybe legitimate, maybe they were the result of sour grapes from South Americans.

Home games obviously an advantage, but it's not something to denigrate the success with- we're not the only ones to have done it.

Mainoo is gonna be a proper player for us.

Got a bit of the Modric and Scholes about him that lad.

7 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

He did help prevent them raiding down their right, but I still think his energy levels are down. He looks shot.

Just hope they can all rest up well- Spain have had an extra day- and recharge their muscles and minds for one last push.

There's no way Southgate is making wholesale changes, and apart from Shaw possibly starting, I reckon the same team will be out there first.

Yup. The subs' performances will be justified exactly as that - they make good subs.

I think Jude will be fine. He's young and fit and will recover a damned sight faster than most folk.

3 minutes ago, Wanderlust said:

Apart from Bolty and the legion of flag shaggers who eyes tear up every time Ramsey and 66 is mentioned - and then use it to beat up every England manager since.

And as Wakey says it goes to show with a bit of luck and some favourable refereeing it can be done and the only folk who will remember it will be those who felt hard done by - as we do about Maradona etc.

Not sure how last night's refereeing was favourable: he didn't give the penalty initially- that was VAR.

He didn't send off Dumfries neither.

Overall I thought he reffed it quite well- the Dutchers were outplayed first half and conceded a lot of free kicks, and pergaps should have been down to 10.

Mainoo did a job on Rodri in the FA Cup final.

JSL

43 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Wrt Lusty's essay, some interesting stories there, but they are just that. Non-provable tales of bias.

Maybe legitimate, maybe they were the result of sour grapes from South Americans.

Home games obviously an advantage, but it's not something to denigrate the success with- we're not the only ones to have done it.

Hang on - the only non-provable bit is the alleged referee comment. The boycott, the numerical bias towards European officials etc - all facts.

Circumstantially,

Kreitlein booked Jack Charlton at the same time as Rattin - Jack didn't even know until after the game.

Kreitlein was escorted off the pitch by the police and was immediately drafted in by FIFA to discuss his decision and was asked to find a solution to warn foreign players as he had no idea what Rattin was saying to him and yet booked him - without warning -  for dissent. The red/yellow card system was the outcome.

He "voluntarily" retired from refereeing in 1967.

IMO he was a shit referee who inadvertently initiated the animosity between South American fans and England which Ramsey poured fuel on with his borderline racist comment.

As for "sour grapes" - Nobby Styles and Jack Charlton got away with murder so it's not as unbalanced a view as you might think. I remember cheering every time Nobby Styles went through a player - and he played for you know who FFS. Article from the archives on British Diplomatic outcome in South America and elsewhere claiming an Anglo-German fix..

But...none of that detracted from my enjoyment of the tournament and the euphoria - and relief - that swept the country.

Just saying that the win - great for the nation as it was at the time - shouldn't be used as a rod to beat subsequent England managers with including Southgate - who will be knighted regardless of the outcome of the final.

Edited July 11, 20241 yr by Wanderlust

1 hour ago, Wanderlust said:

Yup. The subs' performances will be justified exactly as that - they make good subs.

I think Jude will be fine. He's young and fit and will recover a damned sight faster than most folk.

We have some serious talent on our subs bench. That’s what might win it for us 

STILES

1 hour ago, bolty58 said:

He is any-fucking-way. They should do a DMB and sack him just before the final. 

He had better fucking win it. I am waiting with my "Who is on the losing side now, cunt?" if he doesn't. 

Ruined my enjoyment of England games yon mon. There is always around 1% of me thinking "well if we lose, we are one step closer to getting shut". It should not be this way. But it is.

because I'm a massive soft arse who doesn't like anyone if they have a different opinion 😁

I've been critical of Southgate and stand by my criticisms, but I enjoyed last night's performance more than any other England performance I can remember

1 hour ago, Wanderlust said:

Hang on - the only non-provable bit is the alleged referee comment. The boycott, the numerical bias towards European officials etc - all facts.

Circumstantially,

Kreitlein booked Jack Charlton at the same time as Rattin - Jack didn't even know until after the game.

Kreitlein was escorted off the pitch by the police and was immediately drafted in by FIFA to discuss his decision and was asked to find a solution to warn foreign players as he had no idea what Rattin was saying to him and yet booked him - without warning -  for dissent. The red/yellow card system was the outcome.

He "voluntarily" retired from refereeing in 1967.

IMO he was a shit referee who inadvertently initiated the animosity between South American fans and England which Ramsey poured fuel on with his borderline racist comment.

As for "sour grapes" - Nobby Styles and Jack Charlton got away with murder so it's not as unbalanced a view as you might think. I remember cheering every time Nobby Styles went through a player - and he played for you know who FFS. Article from the archives on British Diplomatic outcome in South America and elsewhere claiming an Anglo-German fix..

But...none of that detracted from my enjoyment of the tournament and the euphoria - and relief - that swept the country.

Just saying that the win - great for the nation as it was at the time - shouldn't be used as a rod to beat subsequent England managers with including Southgate - who will be knighted regardless of the outcome of the final.

Numerical bias?

You'll have to explain that.

If more decisions were given towards European sides- that maybe a fact- but it doesn't confirm bias. Maybe those teams were guilty of more fouls.

The game was however far more "physical" then too, with challenges allowed that wouldn't be now.

Really doesn't confirm anything one way or the other; just conjecture etc.

 

 

There will be similar stories around every other winner of a major tournament.

If R9 doesn't throw a wobbler they probably beat France. Same if Zidane doesn't headbutt yon lad.

Swings and roundabouts innit.

1 hour ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Wrt Lusty's essay, some interesting stories there, but they are just that. Non-provable tales of bias.

Maybe legitimate, maybe they were the result of sour grapes from South Americans.

Home games obviously an advantage, but it's not something to denigrate the success with- we're not the only ones to have done it.

I had a look at past winners of the WC and Euros, since 66 (30 tournaments) for interest.  It turns out that out of 12 winners, we are the only team to have only won at home, never away.  Plenty have won away and never at home but not the other way round.

Only 3 other teams have won the WC at home since the war (West Germany, Argentina, France the others).  The last was France in 98 and they were also the last to win the Euros at home (1984).

Time to get our 1st "away" win then!  That would at least put us above Czechs, Denmark, Greece, Holland and Portugal for total WC/Euro trophies.

Phillip Schofield to come on to look after Yamal