Donald Dead Cat On Is Head Trump

[Guest]

There are multiple problems though. You say "ignoring" the feelings of your population ends in disaster. I agree. But pandering to what people think is the problem doesn't fix the underlying issues.

 

Classic example, the EU is blamed for all ills, predominantly by working class people in midland and Northern towns. They do have grievances but the EU is on the whole not the source of them and leaving it will disadvantage those communities further. How do you address that? Those communities have been left behind by 30 plus odd years of rampant free market capitalism with governments making no attempts to try and fix the underlying problems. What many of those communities need is a redistribution of money that flows into London into those places. Ironically something that the EU does far better than we do. But then we get involved and balls it up.

These are your opinions, right, rather than 100% guaranteed facts?

 

Just so I’m clear.

Edited July 18, 2018 by boltondiver

[Tonge moor green jacket]

You're not getting it.

No where has it been said pandering to the likes of trump is right.

But I as indeed others have said, they come a out because of issues people have. Digging deeper down and finding out what these issues are and addressing them is the way to go.

 

You make a point about working class areas etc. If these people had had their concerns addressed over the decades instead of society labelling such concerns as racist then we may not have found ourselves where we are now.

 

For many the out voters may well have been a protest about immigration; that indicates a huge political problem and doesn't make them wrong.

You might not like it and that's fair enough, but ignore them at your peril.

 

Iirc the figures the other day indicated a total net migration of over 300000 last time round. Forget skin colour, or the country of origin, it's huge and massively unsustainable.

Inevitably the poorest in society will be the first to be affected by this.

[mickbrown]

A very clever manipulation of the English language?

 

Very good - you need a job on his staff

[madthatter]

You're not getting it.

No where has it been said pandering to the likes of trump is right.

But I as indeed others have said, they come a out because of issues people have. Digging deeper down and finding out what these issues are and addressing them is the way to go.

 

You make a point about working class areas etc. If these people had had their concerns addressed over the decades instead of society labelling such concerns as racist then we may not have found ourselves where we are now.

 

For many the out voters may well have been a protest about immigration; that indicates a huge political problem and doesn't make them wrong.

You might not like it and that's fair enough, but ignore them at your peril.

 

Iirc the figures the other day indicated a total net migration of over 300000 last time round. Forget skin colour, or the country of origin, it's huge and massively unsustainable.

Inevitably the poorest in society will be the first to be affected by this.

 

And this is the crux of it - educated, middle class types are generally far removed from any effects.  Those in poorer areas see the social changes close up.

 

In my current job I go to many different schools and the problems (challenges, i should say ) faced by inner city, multi-cultural schools are much bigger than leafy, rural or predominantly white ones.  Of course, you're not allowed to talk about this . . . and it's literally dismissed from those on high!

 

It's not about race, religion etc it's about culture(s) - something that has been willfully ignored.  Add to that less resources, usually for the poorer kids, and you see why folk have issues.  I'm all for diversity, it's dead good innit, but I still see unchecked immigration as a terrible idea.

[madthatter]

Very good - you need a job on his staff

 

"You see, even that Michael brown of Wanderswhizz fame understands me!"

 

That's Mr Trump talking, just to be clear  

[bwfcfan5]

You're not getting it.

No where has it been said pandering to the likes of trump is right.

But I as indeed others have said, they come a out because of issues people have. Digging deeper down and finding out what these issues are and addressing them is the way to go.

 

You make a point about working class areas etc. If these people had had their concerns addressed over the decades instead of society labelling such concerns as racist then we may not have found ourselves where we are now.

 

For many the out voters may well have been a protest about immigration; that indicates a huge political problem and doesn't make them wrong.

You might not like it and that's fair enough, but ignore them at your peril.

 

Iirc the figures the other day indicated a total net migration of over 300000 last time round. Forget skin colour, or the country of origin, it's huge and massively unsustainable.

Inevitably the poorest in society will be the first to be affected by this.

But they are in many cases blaming their concerns on factors that aren't actually relevant. Leave the EU to control our borders...except as everyone said it would only lead to the same level of net immigration but with more coming from non-EU countries. So that is exactly what is happening.

Working class communities need local jobs. They need the government to actually spend some money. They probably need some good old fashioned socialism. What they don't need is a witchunt against immigrants that ultimately won't improve their lives one bit.  It has been shown that actually the areas that most strongly voted leave are those with the lowest numbers of immigrants. It doesn't stack up when you examine the facts. 

 

 

The logical extension of this is that someone should have done something about the Jews before Hitler and his mob to "ease concerns" of the native German people. That is the point they were not fecked because of the Jewish people but they were told they were so many believed that. And would be saying exactly the same thing you are "we want our concerns dealt with". Well, they were. Dealt with. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by bwfcfan5

[Tonge moor green jacket]

You are right with your last paragraph.

I don't know enough about the in depth social problems that led to the rise of Hitler etc, but yes, as unpalatable as it may seem some sort of control may have been necessary.

Before you explode; I don't know the full history, so difficult to make a suggestion of exactly what should have been done; but doing nothing led to history as we know it.

If necessary, it might have been military action much earlier that was required.

 

Anyway, the rest of the post is just left wing political rhetoric and ideology

[bwfcfan5]

You are right with your last paragraph.

I don't know enough about the in depth social problems that led to the rise of Hitler etc, but yes, as unpalatable as it may seem some sort of control may have been necessary.

Before you explode; I don't know the full history, so difficult to make a suggestion of exactly what should have been done; but doing nothing led to history as we know it.

If necessary, it might have been military action much earlier that was required.

 

Anyway, the rest of the post is just left wing political rhetoric and ideology

 

 

Nah, I can't agree that you deal with the anti-Jewish sentiment of the 1920s (racism) by exerting "control". The idea that nothing was done is a nonsense. People tried to oppose the rise in anti-semitism and far right nationalism. But ultimately things escalated. My point is that you deal with it by sorting out the racists. Not pandering to their racist opinions. 

[miamiwhite]

You are right with your last paragraph.

I don't know enough about the in depth social problems that led to the rise of Hitler etc, but yes, as unpalatable as it may seem some sort of control may have been necessary.

Before you explode; I don't know the full history, so difficult to make a suggestion of exactly what should have been done; but doing nothing led to history as we know it.

If necessary, it might have been military action much earlier that was required.

 

Anyway, the rest of the post is just left wing political rhetoric and ideology

Especially the bit about more immigrants from non EU countries.....hmmm..I do wonder which continent they are coming from ?

 

Same with countries such as Germany, France, Italy and Spain.......hardly rocket science is it ?

[madthatter]

 

 

 

The logical extension of this is that someone should have done something about the Jews before Hitler and his mob to "ease concerns" of the native German people. That is the point they were not fecked because of the Jewish people but they were told they were so many believed that. And would be saying exactly the same thing you are "we want our concerns dealt with". Well, they were. Dealt with. 

 

Logical if apples are oranges  

 

I see what you're saying but Hitler's rise to power was actively encouraged and somewhat engineered by wealthy elites scared shitless of communism gaining a foothold.  Not just in Germany either.  Ironically, many were Jewish.

 

Once he went past a certain point though they realised they had a mad dog on their hands with the world's strongest militia under his command so those that could upped sticks pronto.

[miamiwhite]

Nah, I can't agree that you deal with the anti-Jewish sentiment of the 1920s (racism) by exerting "control". The idea that nothing was done is a nonsense. People tried to oppose the rise in anti-semitism and far right nationalism. But ultimately things escalated. My point is that you deal with it by sorting out the racists. Not pandering to their racist opinions.

 

In July 1933, the Nazi Party in Germany became the only legal party allowed to stand. All opposition was made illegal......that’s when other countries should have took a serious look instead of Chamberlain years later pissing about with his piece of paper.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Nah, I can't agree that you deal with the anti-Jewish sentiment of the 1920s (racism) by exerting "control". The idea that nothing was done is a nonsense. People tried to oppose the rise in anti-semitism and far right nationalism. But ultimately things escalated. My point is that you deal with it by sorting out the racists. Not pandering to their racist opinions.

 

That's why I suggested earlier military intervention might have been a solution. You know, to give Adolf a bloody nose so to speak? Do you read posts properly before getting on your high horse?

 

But I'll tell you what, let's have your sprinkling of socialism with JC at the helm. So the next time a racist dictator like Asad drops chemical weapons on innocents we do fuck all about it.

[madthatter]

Nah, I can't agree that you deal with the anti-Jewish sentiment of the 1920s (racism) by exerting "control". The idea that nothing was done is a nonsense. People tried to oppose the rise in anti-semitism and far right nationalism. But ultimately things escalated. My point is that you deal with it by sorting out the racists. Not pandering to their racist opinions. 

 

If a loon like Hitler gets enough power you can't do a damn thing except fight them.

 

To my mind It's a cautionary tale that suggests people should take more active interest in the world around them and learn to think and act for themselves and for the good of humanity.

 

Once a discourse, however twisted, becomes the 'norm' it aint going nowhere - so don't let it!

Edited July 18, 2018 by madthatter

[bwfcfan5]

That's why I suggested earlier military intervention might have been a solution. You know, to give Adolf a bloody nose so to speak? Do you read posts properly before getting on your high horse?

 

But I'll tell you what, let's have your sprinkling of socialism with JC at the helm. So the next time a racist dictator like Asad drops chemical weapons on innocents we do fuck all about it.

 

I don't believe that is what you were suggesting. If it is then it was worded incredibly oddly. 

[bwfcfan5]

In July 1933, the Nazi Party in Germany became the only legal party allowed to stand. All opposition was made illegal......that’s when other countries should have took a serious look instead of Chamberlain years later pissing about with his piece of paper.

 

I knew we'd find some common ground. Truth is by then it was probably too late. Something needed to be done earlier to fight the rise of right wing extremism across central Europe at the time. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

In July 1933, the Nazi Party in Germany became the only legal party allowed to stand. All opposition was made illegal......that’s when other countries should have took a serious look instead of Chamberlain years later pissing about with his piece of paper.

Thank you S.

I really can respect his views re socialism, but a continued refusal to accept that there are legitimate issues surrounding immigration, that doesn't constitute racism is the sad barrier that society is having to deal with.

Meanwhile it just gets worse.

I was talking to a neighbour the other day; he was awaiting Tommy Robinsons day in court with avid hope and expectation, his views, like many others I've gleaned through work contacts are fairly typical of what we're saying.

However he then said something; albeit a little in jest, that actually concerned me a little. Not because it was massively extreme but because it was a slight shift that way, because the country seems unwilling that address the issue.

And that's what's worrying.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

I don't believe that is what you were suggesting. If it is then it was worded incredibly oddly.

 

You're right. I was advocating genocide.

Cock end.

[miamiwhite]

I knew we'd find some common ground. Truth is by then it was probably too late. Something needed to be done earlier to fight the rise of right wing extremism across central Europe at the time.

 

Yes, we sadly found some common ground. Once a state becomes totalitarian then the inevitable happens.

 

Just like in Rwanda, where the genocide ironically ended 24 years ago today.

Another one fascinated me was the slaying of the Last Emperor of Russia, the Romanov family by the Bolsheviks, which was ironically 100 years ago yesterday....and covered up for exactly 80 years.

 

Apologies for the digression. Don’t get excited by the common ground though, as you’re on the side of Common Purpose and I’m thankfully on the side of common sense.

[madthatter]

I knew we'd find some common ground. Truth is by then it was probably too late. Something needed to be done earlier to fight the rise of right wing extremism across central Europe at the time. 

 

You're ignoring or missing the glaring here . . . why did the far right rise?

 

Jesus, even the Nazi's started as a 'socialist party'

[barrycowdrill]

If necessary, it might have been military action much earlier that was required.

 

 

 

That's why I suggested earlier military intervention might have been a solution. 

 

I don't believe that is what you were suggesting. If it is then it was worded incredibly oddly. 

 

i think thats exactly what he was suggesting and made it clear more than once 

[Not in Crawley]

If anyone is interested there was a really good programme on Radio 4 this morning about the supposed Decline of the West, and some interesting points about the current failure of Liberal positioning against the nation state, when the two things are not mutually exclusive but it becomes apposed when meeting hard right dogma, as there is no inference of rationality, just partisan 'for' or 'against' positions - or in Britain's case 'remain' or 'stay'.

 

This thread is a good example of ideas or reasoned arguments being simply seen as opposing, when one can clearly hold a multitude of positions without being a hypocrite or the rather more fruity 'traitor'.

 

Anyway, if you've a spare 25 minutes its a balanced programme that expands on some of the issues that are really in play on this board currently.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0931gt3#play

Edited July 18, 2018 by Not in Crawley

[Tonge moor green jacket]

i think thats exactly what he was suggesting and made it clear more than once

 

Thanks Barry.

Did go back and re read my initial post, more than once. Even checked my palms for hair.

I'm not going bonkers just yet.

[mickbrown]

So many people at the higher ends of intelligence loved my press conference performance in Helsinki.

 

Yeah. Course they did Donald.

[bwfcfan5]

You're right. I was advocating genocide.

Cock end.

 

I wasn't suggesting that. I think you were suggesting they should have moved Jews out....what else does "control" mean?

 

Perhaps I've misread it. If so I apologise for that. I thought you meant separately about military action and controlling the Jews...but I accept I might have misread it! 

Edited July 18, 2018 by bwfcfan5

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Fair enough. FWIW I don't know how they would have done it, as I said I wasn't there and don't know the detailed history.

But taking mass immigration now, control of numbers coming in may have made a difference.

If that's not reflective of the situation then fair enough. Simply, those at the top as the situation developed that led to hitlers rise needed to take a look at what was happening and take measures to nip it in the bud.

Just as Europe is doing now; albeit very slowly.

Controlling numbers coming into our country isn't racism. Not doing so may lead to it though.