Politics

[Spider]

1 minute ago, paulhanley said:

I think you'd find if there was an election tomorrow the woke Mr Starmer and whoever leads the illiberal undemocrats these days would not stop another Conservative win. Scrutinising the Government of the day is healthy in a democracy - doesn't mean you're going to opt to vote for the busted flushes who offer themselves as alternatives.

I’d love a decent tory cabinet. Labour, even at their “best” are usually pretty hapless.

To be honest, I keep hoping the 1922 committee or some sort of rebellion comes to the fore at some point.

Im not thick, I know that , by and large, politicians have made it to where they are because they are self-serving, ruthless bastards. But a good number of them reach the top and seem to give a shit and want to do the right thing, and have some competence.

This current mob are just creepy. A cartel of pre-destined jolly boys who are completely put of touch.

Being better than Labour is no endorsement of quality. It’s like saying bolton are better than Bury.

[green genie]

Short of legalising dignified death very little any government can do about demographic of increased lifespan.

Increased tax would be more palatable if tax dodgers from corporate level down through IR35  to cash in hand workers were targeted 

[Rudy]

6 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

but something needs to be done about the social care system and I think it’s going to be an issue in 20/50 years time too. Difficult to resolve and not sure this is the solution but time will tell. 

Saw a girl who I’ve not seen for ages yesterday working in Tesco after the game, asked her about the social care job that she used to have she said she jacked it in, Tesco pays more for less stress, aggro and no responsibility of peoples lives. 
 

Criminally underfunded sector

[Escobarp]

1 minute ago, Rudy said:

Saw a girl who I’ve not seen for ages yesterday working in Tesco after the game, asked her about the social care job that she used to have she said she jacked it in, Tesco pays more for less stress, aggro and no responsibility of peoples lives. 
 

Criminally underfunded sector

But then people moan and chastise a government who “try” and do something about it (allegedly). Nation of moaners and grief junkies sadly. 
 

As has been said if it was easy to fix it would have been done many moons ago. 
 

I would rather they did nowt and then the same folk can moan about them doing nowt as they are about them raising taxes. At least I have a few quid more in my pocket. 
 

 

[Spider]

I absolutely agree with paying more tax. Frankly only a count would disagree with it, but that cunt probably sat on furlough for a year and thinks they’re owed a living.

It just needs to be spent right, and that’s where I doubt this government 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

4 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

But then people moan and chastise a government who “try” and do something about it (allegedly). Nation of moaners and grief junkies sadly. 
 

As has been said if it was easy to fix it would have been done many moons ago. 
 

I would rather they did nowt and then the same folk can moan about them doing nowt as they are about them raising taxes. At least I have a few quid more in my pocket. 
 

 

👍

[Not in Crawley]

Isn't the real issue here at those who will benefit from this haven't actually 'paid in' for this part of care (it's one of the biggest misunderstandings that they have) so it's hitting those in younger and middle age, when they are the generations that have also been hit with unaffordable housing, lack of jobs for life and unable to contribute to their own pensions. 

Basically, it's another boon for the baby boomers, and another burden to those who can least afford it, rather than making those who can really pay, pay.

A round of applause for tackling it, a massive big thumbs down for the actual plan and a total 0/10 for standing outside of number 10 and saying they had a plan when it was totally clear they hadn't a bloody clue. So let's add lying to a really shit strategy. 

[paulhanley]

11 minutes ago, Spider said:

I’d love a decent tory cabinet. Labour, even at their “best” are usually pretty hapless.

To be honest, I keep hoping the 1922 committee or some sort of rebellion comes to the fore at some point.

Im not thick, I know that , by and large, politicians have made it to where they are because they are self-serving, ruthless bastards. But a good number of them reach the top and seem to give a shit and want to do the right thing, and have some competence.

This current mob are just creepy. A cartel of pre-destined jolly boys who are completely put of touch.

Being better than Labour is no endorsement of quality. It’s like saying bolton are better than Bury.

I like your choice of Bury. It's accurate in that it shows how far gone the Labour Party are. The root of Labour's problem for many years now has been their magnetic attraction to wokery when their core vote is socially pretty conservative (small c).  Trying to build credibility on economics is a task for the future should they ever find a way of rising above the culture wars. I doubt they ever will because they view people who don't see the world their wokeish way with a sneer at best. Gordon Brown said the woman in Rochdale in the 2010 election was a "bigot" because she wanted to discuss immigration - its snowballed from there. Labour isn't listening because in Labour's mind it has annexed the moral high ground and is correct by right. Even thrashings at elections don't jolt them. 

.... and so maybe Johnson thinks he can get away with anything, even raising taxes. Maybe he's right.

[paulhanley]

7 minutes ago, Spider said:

I absolutely agree with paying more tax. Frankly only a count would disagree with it, but that cunt probably sat on furlough for a year and thinks they’re owed a living.

It just needs to be spent right, and that’s where I doubt this government 

Would that be the Count from Sesame Street? 

 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

1 hour ago, kent_white said:

I don't know how much a penny in the pound on NI raises. But I'd be surprised if it's enough to fix the social care system. It's been underfunded year on year for decades. I think we should look at other forms of taxation too though. Listening to LBC this afternoon and they mentioned raising VAT and an 'estates tax' which I thought was a decent idea. Basically on death - 10% of your estate goes to the state in taxation, the rest goes wherever you choose it goes. In return - you don't have to pay for the cost of your care while you're alive by flogging your house. 

I don't think we can really blame Boris for going back on a manifesto promise. COVID means that's pretty much a worthless document now. 

There is also some tax on shares etc which will also contribute. In essence both methods- yours and his- yield a similar thing. A cap of 86k means that whatever your estate is worth, only that amount goes to the care, but you've paid more up front.

Yours allows you to keep more up front but takes money later.

At least this way they get the money quicker, and don't have to wait until you croak!

As for how much it yields, will clearly depend upon economic performance/wages; whether its enough, and whether it's spent well, time will tell.

You'll know only too well some of the wasteful elements of nhs procurement etc too.

[Spider]

1 minute ago, paulhanley said:

Would that be the Count from Sesame Street? 

 

😁

he probably had a year on furlough too.

Theres loads of people praying for another lockdown out there, you know.

[paulhanley]

2 minutes ago, Spider said:

😁

he probably had a year on furlough too.

Theres loads of people praying for another lockdown out there, you know.

One ... ha ha ha.

Two ... ha ha ha

[Tonge moor green jacket]

34 minutes ago, paulhanley said:

The problem we're going to have here is that history shows raising taxes is far from guaranteed to increase Government income. If you take money out of people's pockets they spend less - and that inevitably means the economy doesn't grow as much or in the worst case scenario doesn't grow at all. Once that happens Government income shrinks irrespective of rises in direct taxation. It's a downward spiral.

This is well known in economic theory (The Laffer Curve) https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/laffercurve.asp .. there's a sweet spot for the right rate to pitch tax that maximises income to central coffers.

This is no theory - it has been proven in practice over the world and the 1970s in the UK was a good example of what happens when you go mad with direct taxation. 

This also goes to the root of why socialism never, ever works. 

So I'm afraid Boris is getting this horribly wrong. We all know the social care funding problem needs tackling - but this cannot be the way unless he has plans to relieve the tax burden in other areas in due course. It's bad economics.

I don't fully accept this as it not taxation for unwieldy or unnecessary government spending, often with little benefit or wealth creation.

Of course the theory and evidence will show a balance, but what can't be ignored is the double whammy of a highly effective NHS keeping people alive longer means more prolonged and often expensive intensive care later.

It has to be funded, and in itself has become a burgeoning industry providing employment for many. They in turn spend money in the normal way.

The alternative is for folk to do it privately with additional insurance, which still takes money put of the pocket.

Other than that huge cuts into other aspects of spending.

One final solution is of course logan's run to keep the bills down.

 

If people want to live longer in retirement and have care when needed then society as a whole has to accept a little less cash available at some point.

We have also got to address the national debt too, following the pandemic.

How the money is spent will be key, and who knows, in the future, they may be able to ease the tax somewhat.

The triple lock for example is only being stopped for a year.

[Spider]

We could always privatise sections of the NHS….

[donkeyshorn]

51 minutes ago, Rudy said:

Saw a girl who I’ve not seen for ages yesterday working in Tesco after the game, asked her about the social care job that she used to have she said she jacked it in, Tesco pays more for less stress, aggro and no responsibility of peoples lives. 
 

Criminally underfunded sector

HBWHT?

[Rudy]

2 minutes ago, donkeyshorn said:

HBWHT?

A medium sized grapefruit 

[Cheese]

42 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

I don't fully accept this as it not taxation for unwieldy or unnecessary government spending, often with little benefit or wealth creation.

Of course the theory and evidence will show a balance, but what can't be ignored is the double whammy of a highly effective NHS keeping people alive longer means more prolonged and often expensive intensive care later.

It has to be funded, and in itself has become a burgeoning industry providing employment for many. They in turn spend money in the normal way.

The alternative is for folk to do it privately with additional insurance, which still takes money put of the pocket.

Other than that huge cuts into other aspects of spending.

One final solution is of course logan's run to keep the bills down.

 

If people want to live longer in retirement and have care when needed then society as a whole has to accept a little less cash available at some point.

We have also got to address the national debt too, following the pandemic.

How the money is spent will be key, and who knows, in the future, they may be able to ease the tax somewhat.

The triple lock for example is only being stopped for a year.

At some point, you have to stop saying "the proof will be in the pudding" and taste the fucking pudding. They've been in government for more than a decade.

[Spider]

2 minutes ago, Mr Grey said:

Have Labour come up with an alternative 🤔

This isn't on their watch and hasn't been for 10 years.

As Cheese points out, eventually you have to accept that you can't blame anyone else if you've fucked up.

[Spider]

1 minute ago, Mr Grey said:

I asked if they had an alternative, fair question.

It's a fair question

Even if they did, it wouldn't make a shit of difference.

Ten years is enough to get the house in order though. It's 6 years longer than American presidents get 🙂

[Not in Crawley]

1 minute ago, Mr Grey said:

I asked if they had an alternative, fair question.

Yes they have. It follows on from what Burnham had proposed and still continues to advocate for.

It's certainly fairer, but it's pretty unpalatable to the richest.withnthe biggest estates in their older age.

 

[Not in Crawley]

Here you go squire, https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/building-the-national-care-service

 

[mickbrown]

5 minutes ago, Mr Grey said:

I asked if they had an alternative, fair question.

Apparently there was an 83 page cross party alternative document. 

[mickbrown]

1 minute ago, Mr Grey said:

Whether we agree or disagree with what Johnson is putting in place today, what is Labours position, what is their alternative, after all the electorate would like to know, that way we (the electorate) can make our minds up of how we vote next time. Pretty simple really.

It's not that simple anymore though is it?

How can make your mind up based on what a party presents before an election?

Those days are gone now. 

[Spider]

1 minute ago, Mr Grey said:

Whether we agree or disagree with what Johnson is putting in place today, what is Labours position, what is their alternative, after all the electorate would like to know, that way we (the electorate) can make our minds up of how we vote next time. Pretty simple really.

Crawley has answered the question.

Yes there is.

But - and I know how keen you are on this kind of thing - this is about the people in power right now. Their watch.

I've no issue with the Tory party, i have an issue with the current leadership. It's dog dirt.

[mickbrown]

Just now, Mr Grey said:

Without trawling through 83 pages, was a NI raise one of the options ?

God knows. But Boris just acted  the cunt when somebody brought it up today in the commons. I'll try and dig up the clip.