11 hours ago, Wanderlust said:

That's the point though. The Israeli Government is behind it.

The messaianists believe that God won't return to earth until the Israelis own all the land between the Red Sea and the River Jordan which includes all of the West Bank and when God returns all other people including Christians and Muslims will become the "slaves of the Jewish people".

International Law says otherwise, but the Israelis have flouted it for years and are systematically driving the Palestinians out of Palestine leaving them with nowhere to go. The Israeli government not only endorses the actions of the settlers but uses it's army to enforce settlement and the expulsion of the Palestinians - hence the uprising - a by-product of which has been the acceleration of the killings and evictions in the West Bank in recent weeks.

The main tactic however has been to harrass the Palestinians off their land, deny non-Jews any right to build on their own land whilst simultaneously running massive construction projects to build Jewish settlements and encourage a massive influx of settlers into the area - 50 years ago there were practically no Jews in the West Bank and occupied East Jerusalem - now there are over 600k.

In some cases they literally steal people's homes and get the army in to back them up.

 

Good post this.

Just more evidence that the Israeli government targets Palestinians on purpose. Madness that some people think everything they do is only to get at Hamas, and that they don't knowingly target innocent people. 

It's easy for us to judge Israel's response though, we haven't been directly affected. Though you still see people here in the depths of grief after losing loved ones in terrorist attacks calling for calm. Lee Rigby's parents spring to mind, who asked for Tommy Robinson to stop using his name to create more divisions. I'd like to think if I was Israeli that I wouldn't condone this response, as many do over there, but it's hard to know how you would feel.

Hamas were deeply unpopular before their attack and in many ways getting desperate. They rose to power in the aftermath of Israel's deadliest incursion into Gaza. Many Palestinians fought them directly to try and prevent their rise. 

Can't help but question if this obliteration of Gaza will really put an end to Hamas as well. 49 innocent people dead at the refugee camp today whilst seeking safety. All for 1 Hamas commander. If you're family was one of the 49, would you blame the dead commander or Israel? 



 

1 hour ago, London Wanderer said:

If you're family was one of the 49, would you blame the dead commander or Israel? 

Both.

1 hour ago, Traf said:

Both.

Would you?

Saudi Arabia buy UK weapons. They use said weapons to attack Yemen.

Imagine you're a Yemeni dad who has seen his family blown to bits with a UK missile, shot by Saudis. 

Who do you blame?

As you survey the wreckage of your life, I'd wager the Yemeni government comes low on your list. Irrespective of who did what, 10, 50, 100 years ago.

It's not who is "right" or "wrong" in our Western ivory towers; we haven't got a horse in the race. It's about how you would feel, in attributing immediate blame, when you're faced with an atrocity. 

I've never been in that position, and I'm grateful. Imagine you were though.

How do you feel? 

@Traf can answer for himself, but I make him right

Not equal, but blame both ways

Id go mainly Israel, though

1 hour ago, TM Trotter said:

Would you?

Saudi Arabia buy UK weapons. They use said weapons to attack Yemen.

Imagine you're a Yemeni dad who has seen his family blown to bits with a UK missile, shot by Saudis. 

Who do you blame?

As you survey the wreckage of your life, I'd wager the Yemeni government comes low on your list. Irrespective of who did what, 10, 50, 100 years ago.

It's not who is "right" or "wrong" in our Western ivory towers; we haven't got a horse in the race. It's about how you would feel, in attributing immediate blame, when you're faced with an atrocity. 

I've never been in that position, and I'm grateful. Imagine you were though.

How do you feel? 

 

1 hour ago, Casino said:

@Traf can answer for himself, but I make him right

Not equal, but blame both ways

Id go mainly Israel, though

In most conflicts, both sides are to blame, although rarely equally.

To address your original hypothetical situation, if the Israelis kill 49 innocents to ensure they kill one Hamas commander, they're in the wrong, but so are Hamas for hiding amongst the innocents.

Hamas are also wrong for provoking Israel into such action, but Hamas might well feel the Israel's actions over many years have driven them to it.

And so on and so on.

Both to blame, but Israel more over the years.

12 hours ago, gonzo said:

Ive seen videos that I hope and pray are fake and you are right.

 

Me too. Hopefully AI or similar. The pregnant woman one possibly the worst thing I have ever seen in my life.

Either way, some on here are attempting (or at least appearing) to sanitise the atrocities of Hamas. Seems antisemitism amongst lefties is de rigueur.

2 hours ago, Casino said:

@Traf can answer for himself, but I make him right

Not equal, but blame both ways

Id go mainly Israel, though

Well what a shock 

See my previous post.

1 hour ago, bolty58 said:

Me too. Hopefully AI or similar. The pregnant woman one possibly the worst thing I have ever seen in my life.

Either way, some on here are attempting (or at least appearing) to sanitise the atrocities of Hamas. Seems antisemitism amongst lefties is de rigueur.

Ah the thick old racists card. 

10 hours ago, London Wanderer said:

Good post this.

Just more evidence that the Israeli government targets Palestinians on purpose. Madness that some people think everything they do is only to get at Hamas, and that they don't knowingly target innocent people. 

It's easy for us to judge Israel's response though, we haven't been directly affected. Though you still see people here in the depths of grief after losing loved ones in terrorist attacks calling for calm. Lee Rigby's parents spring to mind, who asked for Tommy Robinson to stop using his name to create more divisions. I'd like to think if I was Israeli that I wouldn't condone this response, as many do over there, but it's hard to know how you would feel.

Hamas were deeply unpopular before their attack and in many ways getting desperate. They rose to power in the aftermath of Israel's deadliest incursion into Gaza. Many Palestinians fought them directly to try and prevent their rise. 

Can't help but question if this obliteration of Gaza will really put an end to Hamas as well. 49 innocent people dead at the refugee camp today whilst seeking safety. All for 1 Hamas commander. If you're family was one of the 49, would you blame the dead commander or Israel? 



 

Hamas committed the massacre of Jews to derail the Saudi Israel peace initiative, part of that discussion was for Israel to return Palestinian land on the West Bank and discuss Israeli settlers there. Nethanyahu commented on a pivotal moment in relations, sadly any chance of moving forward on that initiative has now been removed. 

8 hours ago, Traf said:

 

In most conflicts, both sides are to blame, although rarely equally.

To address your original hypothetical situation, if the Israelis kill 49 innocents to ensure they kill one Hamas commander, they're in the wrong, but so are Hamas for hiding amongst the innocents.

Hamas are also wrong for provoking Israel into such action, but Hamas might well feel the Israel's actions over many years have driven them to it.

And so on and so on.

Both to blame, but Israel more over the years.

Agreed

1 hour ago, Mounts Kipper said:

Hamas committed the massacre of Jews to derail the Saudi Israel peace initiative, part of that discussion was for Israel to return Palestinian land on the West Bank and discuss Israeli settlers there. Nethanyahu commented on a pivotal moment in relations, sadly any chance of moving forward on that initiative has now been removed. 

who do you think gains from that?

8 hours ago, Traf said:

 

In most conflicts, both sides are to blame, although rarely equally.

To address your original hypothetical situation, if the Israelis kill 49 innocents to ensure they kill one Hamas commander, they're in the wrong, but so are Hamas for hiding amongst the innocents.

Hamas are also wrong for provoking Israel into such action, but Hamas might well feel the Israel's actions over many years have driven them to it.

And so on and so on.

Both to blame, but Israel more over the years.

Completely agree with this.

Trouble is, because Hamas are Muslims, in the eyes of the gammons, they'll ALWAYS be the baddies of a situation.  Always.

19 minutes ago, DazBob said:

Completely agree with this.

Trouble is, because Hamas are TERRORISTS, in the eyes of anyone who can see, they'll ALWAYS be the baddies of a situation.  Always.

Fixed it for you 👍

Edited November 1, 20232 yr by royal white

38 minutes ago, DazBob said:

Completely agree with this.

Trouble is, because PALESTINIANS are Muslims, in the eyes of the gammons, they'll ALWAYS be the baddies of a situation.  Always.

Fixed it for you 👍

42 minutes ago, DazBob said:

Completely agree with this.

Trouble is, because Hamas are Muslims, in the eyes of the gammons, they'll ALWAYS be the baddies of a situation.  Always.

You can see where part of this thinking may come from though in the grand scheme of things.

Islam does have  particular cloud that follows it about.

23 minutes ago, gonzo said:

You can see where part of this thinking may come from though in the grand scheme of things.

Islam does have  particular cloud that follows it about.

Undoubtedly, and understandably.

29 minutes ago, Casino said:

Fixed it for you 👍

Ta.

1 hour ago, DazBob said:

Completely agree with this.

Trouble is, because Hamas are Muslims, in the eyes of the gammons, they'll ALWAYS be the baddies of a situation.  Always.

 

Would love to hear a take on this situation where Hamas aren't the baddies...

Just now, Tombwfc said:

 

Would love to hear a take on this situation where Hamas aren't the baddies...

THE baddies.  As in nobody else is.

40 minutes ago, gonzo said:

You can see where part of this thinking may come from though in the grand scheme of things.

Islam does have  particular cloud that follows it about.

Despite being pro-Palestine, I fully agree. Islamic/Muslim terrorism is often at the back of people's minds, sadly.

And to clarify my stance...

Hamas are both muslim & terrorists
Palestinians are muslims
Not all Palestinians are Hamas and/or terrorists
Not all muslims are terrorists

Israel has engaged in "legalised/permitted" acts of persecution of the Palestinian people for years and it has been swept under the carpet by most of the Western world. It's only news now because they've suffered some casualties of their own.

4 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

Would love to hear a take on this situation where Hamas aren't the baddies...

Nobody on here is defending Hamas or saying they aren't baddies.
As @DazBob says being "bad" isn't exclusive to Hamas.

1 hour ago, DazBob said:

Undoubtedly, and understandably.

The invisible boogeyman. Blaming religion feels far too simplistic. For balance we never hear about those religious people who do great things for others etc. They do it then it’s off their own back. If badduns then it’s religion.

If we had no religion I’m pretty sure Israel and Palestine Ukraine/Russia would still be battling.

Not seen anything to convince me otherwise

There's a show we've been working on that's been very timely, and looked at in the context of the current crisis in the middle east unpicks some of the huge complexity of discussions about religion and occupation.

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2023/sep/21/the-white-factory-review-marylebone-theatre-london-dmitry-glukhovsky

The reason calls for a ceasefire are misguided:

 

53 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

The reason calls for a ceasefire are misguided:

 

Sick of people saying the west need to intervene. We’ve been here before. We help out then a few months down the line we are the bad guys. Leave them to it.