After Lostock White pointed out Derby, Ipswich and Plymouths achievements of promotion after previously not reaching the play-offs the season before…

I’ve just asked AI a quick question about whether their squads in the promotion year had significant contributions from the failures the year before…

I think it gives us some hope…

It's difficult to give an exact number without detailed squad lists for both the 2021/22 and 2022/23 seasons, but a significant portion of the players who contributed to Plymouth Argyle's promotion in the 2022/23 season were also part of the squad in the previous season. Many of those players, particularly the key players and those who played regularly in the 2021/22 season, were retained for the promotion campaign in 2022/23

 

In Ipswich Town's 22/23 promotion season, eight players from their 21/22 squad started at least 20 of the 23 league games. Among those, three players – Chaplin, Cameron Burgess, and Luke Woolfenden – started every single one. 

 

Several key players from Derby's 2022/23 squad played a regular role in their promotion-winning 2023/24 season, including Nathaniel Mendez-Laing and Eiran Cashin

1 hour ago, desperado said:

Or a tendency to be under-rated because we are judging them with the set of clones they are playing with? 

We could almost field a team of number 10s who all do the same thing.

 

And, aside from Birmingham who would have got promoted whatever formation they played, I'd guess that none of the teams promoted in the last couple of seasons, or those in the play offs currently, even had/have a number 10.  It seems to be only us in this entire division that thinks one is needed.

Everyone else looks for big/strong CFs, proper strong midfielders and big imposing defenders (that doesn't mean they are all any good, hence plenty of them still finish below us). 

I'm not saying we should get rid of them all, SS will decide what's needed, but it certainly puts IEs obsession with "no.10"'s into perspective.  It seemed to be that if you're a L1 no.10 looking for a pay rise and a long contract, give Bolton a call.  Not any longer 🤞 

29 minutes ago, Johnnyrotten said:

And, aside from Birmingham who would have got promoted whatever formation they played, I'd guess that none of the teams promoted in the last couple of seasons, or those in the play offs currently, even had/have a number 10.  It seems to be only us in this entire division that thinks one is needed.

Everyone else looks for big/strong CFs, proper strong midfielders and big imposing defenders (that doesn't mean they are all any good, hence plenty of them still finish below us). 

I'm not saying we should get rid of them all, SS will decide what's needed, but it certainly puts IEs obsession with "no.10"'s into perspective.  It seemed to be that if you're a L1 no.10 looking for a pay rise and a long contract, give Bolton a call.  Not any longer 🤞 

                          Baxter 

                 Dempsey. Matete

   Schon.     Randall.   Lolos    Tutu

         CMG.      Mcatee     Collins

We could certainly get a decent 10 a side team out 😂

We had a laugh on the train down to Peterborough, with the old “Team of Nicky Hunt chant”

..replacing Nicky Hunt with number 10

🎵 And number 1’s a number 10 and number 2’s a number 10… We all dream of a team of number 10’s 🎵

 

Edited May 5, 20251 yr by desperado
Forgot about Lolos 🤣

33 minutes ago, Johnnyrotten said:

And, aside from Birmingham who would have got promoted whatever formation they played, I'd guess that none of the teams promoted in the last couple of seasons, or those in the play offs currently, even had/have a number 10.  It seems to be only us in this entire division that thinks one is needed.

Everyone else looks for big/strong CFs, proper strong midfielders and big imposing defenders (that doesn't mean they are all any good, hence plenty of them still finish below us). 

I'm not saying we should get rid of them all, SS will decide what's needed, but it certainly puts IEs obsession with "no.10"'s into perspective.  It seemed to be that if you're a L1 no.10 looking for a pay rise and a long contract, give Bolton a call.  Not any longer 🤞 

 

Edited May 5, 20251 yr by Farnywhite

2 hours ago, desperado said:

After Lostock White pointed out Derby, Ipswich and Plymouths achievements of promotion after previously not reaching the play-offs the season before…

I’ve just asked AI a quick question about whether their squads in the promotion year had significant contributions from the failures the year before…

I think it gives us some hope…

 

It's difficult to give an exact number without detailed squad lists for both the 2021/22 and 2022/23 seasons, but a significant portion of the players who contributed to Plymouth Argyle's promotion in the 2022/23 season were also part of the squad in the previous season. Many of those players, particularly the key players and those who played regularly in the 2021/22 season, were retained for the promotion campaign in 2022/23

 

In Ipswich Town's 22/23 promotion season, eight players from their 21/22 squad started at least 20 of the 23 league games. Among those, three players – Chaplin, Cameron Burgess, and Luke Woolfenden – started every single one. 

 

Several key players from Derby's 2022/23 squad played a regular role in their promotion-winning 2023/24 season, including Nathaniel Mendez-Laing and Eiran Cashin

Portsmouth brought in 22 new players the season they won the title and weren’t in the play offs the season before if Charlton get promoted this season they have brought in 16 new players after failing to make the play offs and got rid of 36 ripping apart the first team and B team and loaning another few out . Sunderland made big changes the year they went up so you can make a argument for both 

2 minutes ago, Farnywhite said:

Portsmouth brought in 22 new players the season they won the title and weren’t in the play offs the season before if Charlton get promoted this season they have brought in 16 new players after failing to make the play offs and got rid of 36 ripping apart the first team and B team and loaning another few out . Sunderland made big changes the year they went up so you can make a argument for both 

Fair enough.

To me, vast changes seem too much of an upheaval and gamble compared to smaller key significant changes.

I don’t know, but I’d think there’s a lot more who’ve tried that approach and failed.

I’d fancy the Plymouth, Derby and Ipswich approach, getting some effective starting 11 additions alongside some of our better players. And let’s not forget, a different manager in situ from the start of the season, with a more flexible and varied approach, that can’t be underestimated.

We quite simply are not in a position to make that number of changes, whether SS would like to.

9 hours ago, Farnywhite said:

Portsmouth brought in 22 new players the season they won the title and weren’t in the play offs the season before if Charlton get promoted this season they have brought in 16 new players after failing to make the play offs and got rid of 36 ripping apart the first team and B team and loaning another few out . Sunderland made big changes the year they went up so you can make a argument for both 

I think Oxford United made a similar number of changes the season they beat us at Wembley

I understand people coming on here and rightly saying we cannot move many on and we may struggle to change the squads shape and Mentality....I totally disagree i think Schumacher has enough to reshape and energise the squad.

Three players 99% certain of leaving will be Baxter. Jones and Santos and i see no chance any of the loan players returning. That will instantly give Schumacher 6 places to bring in his players....Added to that we will get offers for another couple which might not be in Schumacher plans. Finally i can see a few sent out on loan though we will most certainly take a hit with a percentage of their wages.

Every player he brings in will more than likely start the season as first choice........Kick off next August with Toal,  Forrester, Firino, Cogley,,Conway, Schon, Morley. Sheehan, Dempsey and Collins  plus around 8 new signings and i think we will be way stronger

Plymouth started their 22/23 season with 13 of their 21/22 squad, so roughly around half. More important was who they were and the positions, so the core of a top team was there. Keeper, most of defence, couple of midfield and two strikers. 

It can and has been done to go wholesale and swap a dozen or more out and in but it can be tricky too, Forest's gung ho signing of about 20 nearly backfired, their progress this season has been based on the best 14-15 of those being well bedded in and just being supplemented by a few such as Elliot Anderson. 

We'll be in the realms of 8-9 outs and ins, hopefully those ins including some nuggets from the loan market 

5 minutes ago, ianofcleveleys said:

Plymouth started their 22/23 season with 13 of their 21/22 squad, so roughly around half. More important was who they were and the positions, so the core of a top team was there. Keeper, most of defence, couple of midfield and two strikers. 

It can and has been done to go wholesale and swap a dozen or more out and in but it can be tricky too, Forest's gung ho signing of about 20 nearly backfired, their progress this season has been based on the best 14-15 of those being well bedded in and just being supplemented by a few such as Elliot Anderson. 

We'll be in the realms of 8-9 outs and ins, hopefully those ins including some nuggets from the loan market 

My thoughts exactly......Two full backs not wingers, Old head at centre half, Bastard in midfield and pace our wide and two lumps up front added to the core and it will be a decent squad

2 hours ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

I think Oxford United made a similar number of changes the season they beat us at Wembley

Yes, 16 new players in.

They had a poor start but did ok once the squad bedded in.

Good recognition from them that the squad wasn't good enough.

(Although changing manager may have helped too).

Bastards 😁

2 hours ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

We quite simply are not in a position to make that number of changes, whether SS would like to.

I agree I think it’s a moot point really I don’t think we will see many changes in one window .
 personally I would like a massive overhaul as a squad they peaked 16 months ago and the slide as continued to were we are now . As we saw this season a few additions it doesn’t seem to change much and the constant injuries cripple us . 
I can see why a lot of people tbink or are just hoping 5 or 6 will make a difference but I do t see it personally to make for automatic over a season. 

Edited May 6, 20251 yr by Farnywhite

Wev'e got the players, they just need to perform to their capabilites, thats not to say we don't need a physical striker like Dion.

 We can swop at least 6 to 8 players just by replacing the loans and out of contracts and unless we pay silly transfer fees at little or no cost. Baxter, Jones and Rico will have been on good money so their replacements shouldn’t cost at all and any loans we make should be similar to the current bunch so no cost there either. We’re starting to see the released lists which will certainly provide players of interest to us so no fees there just wages, some of which may be high but if we seriously want to compete it’s what we have to do. If we can offload a few like Sheehan, Lolos, Tutu and Schon, even McAtee or Collins if the offers right, then so much the better. I don’t agree with this we can’t afford to change half the team stuff. We can, others have and I’m sure SS and Fergal will too.

That Plymouth team that SS won the league with, had at least 7 players now proven at championship level.  We currently have a distinct lack of players that will ever be proven at that level, it shows the size of the task in upgrading the squad. 

I don't know how many SS signed out of Morgan Whittaker and Finn Azaz (now both at M'boro), Ryan Hardie, Michael Cooper (Sheff U now); also Bail Mumba, Adam Randell and Jordan Houghton been regulars for them in the championship.  SS also had Niall Ennis and the physicality of Cosgrove.

I'm not sure how much was a bit of fortune that SS had all these players at once in L1 and how much was down to his own ability to get players of that level to play for him in L1.

Unless there is another Bradley knocking about I would be happy with JDC and Conway being our first choice full backs ( happy means would rather spend money/recruit elsewhere)

Centre halves - Forino as the big lad, Johnston and Forester as 3 centre halves, Toal if fit can fit in. But would like to see an older head in there , assume Santos and Jones are off. (Rob Holding anyone ?? Or Craig Dawson ? 29 and 35 respectively- I only really know ex Bolton players). Inwood potential but is he really big and strong enough yet ? 

Midfield - Morley is fine, Dempsey being described as Injury prone but played 80 games over the 2 seasons prior to this one, worth keeping IMO, Legohead, IMO ok as a squad player but certainly not captain. Sheehan gone stale think a move might suit him and us one of the few we could get a fee for. Tutu  - do not think he took a man on in last 3 months but does something no one else does, beat a man with pace. Need more in there as we all agree. Does not have to be the greatest player but a leader in there. Darren Pratley at 40 has had a better season than everyone in our midfield. SSA and Lawrence from young uns might have a role to provide cover. Maybe even need 2 in here. 
 

Up front big Dan nowhere near it and injured too much, Big Vic nowhere near it and injured till Xmas, Big Dave , looks raw probably needs to go out on loan imo not ready. Lolos never got going , Randall never looked like getting going but in last couple of games some very low level improvements. Collins really frustrating season in glimpses brilliant overall just not enough, McAtee similar but more frustrating and even less good stuff. Would not cry if either were sold. Everyone knows we need more here a big un and fast un. 

 

Hopefully based on age some of the young uns do not take up a squad place, but think at 21 Conway will ? 

 

14 hours ago, desperado said:

After Lostock White pointed out Derby, Ipswich and Plymouths achievements of promotion after previously not reaching the play-offs the season before…

I’ve just asked AI a quick question about whether their squads in the promotion year had significant contributions from the failures the year before…

I think it gives us some hope…

 

It's difficult to give an exact number without detailed squad lists for both the 2021/22 and 2022/23 seasons, but a significant portion of the players who contributed to Plymouth Argyle's promotion in the 2022/23 season were also part of the squad in the previous season. Many of those players, particularly the key players and those who played regularly in the 2021/22 season, were retained for the promotion campaign in 2022/23

 

In Ipswich Town's 22/23 promotion season, eight players from their 21/22 squad started at least 20 of the 23 league games. Among those, three players – Chaplin, Cameron Burgess, and Luke Woolfenden – started every single one. 

 

Several key players from Derby's 2022/23 squad played a regular role in their promotion-winning 2023/24 season, including Nathaniel Mendez-Laing and Eiran Cashin

I thought AI was supposed to go off and trawl through multiple sources to pull a comprehensive answer back? That's about as detailed as me chatting about football in the pub "yeah a few of the same players were there"

1 hour ago, Stig said:

I thought AI was supposed to go off and trawl through multiple sources to pull a comprehensive answer back? That's about as detailed as me chatting about football in the pub "yeah a few of the same players were there"

Wouldn’t surprise me if Sheehan went nor one of McAtee or Collins and I think we will let at least one of our central defenders go too either Toal, Johnstone or Forrester and bring in either an experienced head or a big young guy like the lad from Lincoln. It will certainly be a summer of change and I’m sure a few surprises amongst them.

1 hour ago, Ani said:

Unless there is another Bradley knocking about I would be happy with JDC and Conway being our first choice full backs ( happy means would rather spend money/recruit elsewhere)

Would feel more confident if these two were our backup full backs.

If we’re playing 4 at the back next season, we need 2 right backs and 2 left backs. To be a promotion side, we need the incoming to be improvements.

I could repeat that for other areas of the team as well, ending by saying we need 2 x 9s.

Randall, CMG, Dempsey, Vic and Big Dan all been told they need to find new clubs apparently.

When I say apparently it's been banded about in what'sapp groups

4 minutes ago, Rival Son said:

Would feel more confident if these two were our backup full backs.

If we’re playing 4 at the back next season, we need 2 right backs and 2 left backs. To be a promotion side, we need the incoming to be improvements.

I could repeat that for other areas of the team as well, ending by saying we need 2 x 9s.

As I say ‘happy’ means I think we have bigger priorities if we can rid of enough to have these as backups no worries

2 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Randall, CMG, Dempsey, Vic and Big Dan all been told they need to find new clubs apparently.

When I say apparently it's been banded about in what'sapp groups

Going to take some hit on Randall I'd have thought

26 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Randall, CMG, Dempsey, Vic and Big Dan all been told they need to find new clubs apparently.

When I say apparently it's been banded about in what'sapp groups

 

23 minutes ago, Zico said:

Going to take some hit on Randall I'd have thought

And there’s only him, out of that lot, that isn’t a crock.

Nearly said crock of shit. 😁

I won't be able to take another season of Mcatee.