Keep

Collins, Randall, Morley, Forino, Dempsey, Baxter, Southwood, Schon, Toal, Tutu, Forrester, Cogley, (Vic, injury means we cant' get rid)

Get rid, Mcatee, Santos, Jones, Sheehan, Thomasson, Gomes, Lolos, Johnston

prob missed a couple and not included the loans 

must remember nlundlu bollocks is coming back 

2 hours ago, Farnywhite said:

I thik Plymouth at Wembley and Northern Ireland playing  toal when he was injured was the start of his troubles then evatt playing Dempsey with a broken back didn’t help but we get a lot hamstrings probably down to training and recovery . 

I agree Farny, that injury from Plymouth took a lot out of him and for me he was rushed back too soon. Thankfully SS hasn’t done that and after a long rest and a full pre season Eoin will be back to his best. Demps I’m afraid is a bit of a crock now and probably needs to move on along with our other constantly injured like CMG and Tutu.

Edited May 5, 20251 yr by Whitesince63
Spelling

1 hour ago, Blondi said:

Quite interesting what SS said in the BEN, not sure if he's having a dig at the current crop of players, I wouldn't be surprised though.(see below)

“You have just got to find the right players and get the right personalities, more than anything. You've got to get people who have high standards every day, train properly, professionally, and can carry out what you've asked them to do on the pitch, week in, week out, and be consistent. 

 

The above says everything about the players at our club even Evatt alluded to it . 

9 minutes ago, Rizlar said:

The above says everything about the players at our club even Evatt alluded to it . 

The problem is he brought all these fairies to the club.

Edited May 5, 20251 yr by deeane Koontz

8 minutes ago, deeane Koontz said:

The problem is he brought all these fairies to the club.

Correct but he allowed them to if information is correct piss about at training !

Maybe Schumacher will have em spending the early part of preseason running up and down rivvy with rucksacks full of bricks.

1 hour ago, deeane Koontz said:

The problem is he brought all these fairies to the club.

Joel Randall has to be the biggest fairy we have signed in many a year,  can't see what some folk dee when they say there is a player in there.    Be more than happy to receive a double offer for him and mcatee

3 hours ago, Steejay said:

All of those guys are still under contract ( not sure about Forrester).

How are you going to get ruthless with them?

It's more difficult certainly but players and their agents soon clear off when it's made clear there's no future at the club.  Some stick around, training every day with the kids (Bogarde and Arter are a couple of high profile ones who spring to mind) but generally an exit can be sorted out. 

5 hours ago, deeane Koontz said:

The problem is he brought all these fairies to the club.

What happens when you sign players based on data and not character.

Wonder what Jon Newsomes, Paul Warhursts or Ian Marshalls stats were like?

Lads like Gary Speed and Per Frandsen.

Ultimate professionals.

Our current shower of shit can barely train properly.

6 hours ago, Steejay said:

All of those guys are still under contract ( not sure about Forrester).

How are you going to get ruthless with them?

Do not estimate how much money in a players contract will be linked to performance. Telling a player he won’t be getting appearance bonuses and performance bonus based on the team and personal results will their income. Add in ego (not pride as that is sadly lacking) and there are plenty of reasons that players under contract will look to leave.  The hit we will be taking is on fees paid.

I am hoping that the message is not simply ‘everyone is for sale’ for all the faults we have all seen there is some quality that we can build on, as mentioned adding grit/character/spirit/professionalism/physicality to the ‘talent’  is ‘all’ we need . 
 

6 hours ago, Steejay said:

All of those guys are still under contract ( not sure about Forrester).

How are you going to get ruthless with them?

It’s difficult but like SS as said he will be sitting down with a few and telling them there not in is plans and hopefully a few home truths and may be they decide to move on rather than sit it out . If they sit it out then he will have to name them in the squad I don’t think we will have a budget big enough to freeze them out . 

24 minutes ago, gonzo said:

What happens when you sign players based on data and not character.

Wonder what Jon Newsomes, Paul Warhursts or Ian Marshalls stats were like?

Lads like Gary Speed and Per Frandsen.

Ultimate professionals.

Our current shower of shit can barely train properly.

Was it Marshall that put his fitness tracker on the dog, much to big Sam's annoyance?

19 hours ago, Zico said:

 

Seems Vic has joined the club where you get better the longer you're out

Vic and McAtee do have one thing in common, an aversion to heading the ball.

But where McAtee frustrates by for eg rounding the keeper and missing, Vic wouldn't be rounding the keeper or getting into those positions in the first place.  McAtee is poor but is twice the player Vic is.

Vic, Dan, Etete...I'm just astounded at our recruitment, I'll add McAtee to the list in terms of what we paid for him, but he's still got more to his game than those 3 put together, IMO.

12 minutes ago, Ani said:

Do not estimate how much money in a players contract will be linked to performance. Telling a player he won’t be getting appearance bonuses and performance bonus based on the team and personal results will their income. Add in ego (not pride as that is sadly lacking) and there are plenty of reasons that players under contract will look to leave.  The hit we will be taking is on fees paid.

I am hoping that the message is not simply ‘everyone is for sale’ for all the faults we have all seen there is some quality that we can build on, as mentioned adding grit/character/spirit/professionalism/physicality to the ‘talent’  is ‘all’ we need . 
 

I agree we shouldn't be pushing everyone out of the door but at the minute there's no one I'd be upset if we sold them.

4 minutes ago, frank_spencer said:

Was it Marshall that put his fitness tracker on the dog, much to big Sam's annoyance?

It was 😁

6 hours ago, frank_spencer said:

Maybe Schumacher will have em spending the early part of preseason running up and down rivvy with rucksacks full of bricks.

I'd be very interested to see what SS and team's pre season looks like and how our remaining current incumbents hack it. 

There was a lot of bullshit and bluster from Evatt about players coming in 'being better for our pre season's, the reality was that it has left us with a squad that's had a horrendous injury record over the past three seasons and has faded in the home straight every time. 

I'm looking forward to what SS has in mind, and the sorts of players he brings in who he reckons will eat up that work

2 hours ago, Johnnyrotten said:

Vic and McAtee do have one thing in common, an aversion to heading the ball.

But where McAtee frustrates by for eg rounding the keeper and missing, Vic wouldn't be rounding the keeper or getting into those positions in the first place.  McAtee is poor but is twice the player Vic is.

Vic, Dan, Etete...I'm just astounded at our recruitment, I'll add McAtee to the list in terms of what we paid for him, but he's still got more to his game than those 3 put together, IMO.

Yep. 💯%

Let's not get unreal.

7 hours ago, frank_spencer said:

Maybe Schumacher will have em spending the early part of preseason running up and down rivvy with rucksacks full of bricks.

Fucking hell imagine that with these lot you would have 8 out with hamstrings for start of the season  and 3 knee ops and Dempsey with a fucked back again 

Any time a player is mentioned, there always seems to be a reluctance to just label them as shit. There’s always a “if we had a team of…”, “we’ve seen that they can do…”, “they’re the least of our problems”.

It’s admirable, and all very nice and let’s not call our players names, but we’ve just finished 8th in the league, 20 points off our aim for the season so there are areas of our team that are just shit, or at least shit compared to what we need to be where we aim to be in the league.

For what it’s worth, and for as bad as our defensive record has been this season, I think we’ve got centre backs that could make a decent traditional centre back partnership and although Cogley has limitations, I think as a right full back he’s also good enough.

We need a left back, obviously.

The defence hasn’t been helped by what’s in front of them, absolute weak as piss, chaotic shit show.

That starts in centre mid. You won’t get out of this league with an average centre midfield. Morley has proven that he can cut it at the top of this league in a decent team and also looked a cut above when he came back - he’s a starter. I like Dempsey but he’s never fit and not getting younger so he can go, I like Sheehan but he’s had his time for us and ultimately isn’t cut out when it comes to the fight of league 1 and for all the character GT gives you, he’s not good enough at football to be your starting centre mid that gets us out of this league - if we’d signed him from anywhere other than a semi pro outfit and he hadn’t turned down a move away then everybody would say the same.

So a new centre mid alongside Morley, and probably 1 or 2 more to bolster the squad. (Jury still out on Randall but I think he could prove to be decent in the 10 role with a proper centre mid partnership and a decent striker in front of him).

We’ve got no decent reliable wide players. Schon is shit, he offers nothing but he seems to get people sticking up for him because he waves his arms. Tutu is a 1 in 6/7 player and is poor for the rest of the time / injury prone - he gets backed because he got some full backs a yellow card in those 2 or 3 games in the season he showed up. We need better on both wings.

Then up top - everyone knows what a shit show so probably no need to emphasise. McAtee gets supported because he makes good runs or something, Vic is getting a bit of support the longer he’s been out, and Collins is the only bit of class we’ve got in the squad, he just needs a partner that isn’t fucking McAtee.

So for the starting 11, that’s

Left back, centre mid, left wing (although Collins might go there in a 4231), right wing and striker.

A few ‘tweaks’ to this starting line up and we’re going nowhere again.

27 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Any time a player is mentioned, there always seems to be a reluctance to just label them as shit. There’s always a “if we had a team of…”, “we’ve seen that they can do…”, “they’re the least of our problems”.

It’s admirable, and all very nice and let’s not call our players names, but we’ve just finished 8th in the league, 20 points off our aim for the season so there are areas of our team that are just shit, or at least shit compared to what we need to be where we aim to be in the league.

For what it’s worth, and for as bad as our defensive record has been this season, I think we’ve got centre backs that could make a decent traditional centre back partnership and although Cogley has limitations, I think as a right full back he’s also good enough.

We need a left back, obviously.

The defence hasn’t been helped by what’s in front of them, absolute weak as piss, chaotic shit show.

That starts in centre mid. You won’t get out of this league with an average centre midfield. Morley has proven that he can cut it at the top of this league in a decent team and also looked a cut above when he came back - he’s a starter. I like Dempsey but he’s never fit and not getting younger so he can go, I like Sheehan but he’s had his time for us and ultimately isn’t cut out when it comes to the fight of league 1 and for all the character GT gives you, he’s not good enough at football to be your starting centre mid that gets us out of this league - if we’d signed him from anywhere other than a semi pro outfit and he hadn’t turned down a move away then everybody would say the same.

So a new centre mid alongside Morley, and probably 1 or 2 more to bolster the squad. (Jury still out on Randall but I think he could prove to be decent in the 10 role with a proper centre mid partnership and a decent striker in front of him).

We’ve got no decent reliable wide players. Schon is shit, he offers nothing but he seems to get people sticking up for him because he waves his arms. Tutu is a 1 in 6/7 player and is poor for the rest of the time / injury prone - he gets backed because he got some full backs a yellow card in those 2 or 3 games in the season he showed up. We need better on both wings.

Then up top - everyone knows what a shit show so probably no need to emphasise. McAtee gets supported because he makes good runs or something, Vic is getting a bit of support the longer he’s been out, and Collins is the only bit of class we’ve got in the squad, he just needs a partner that isn’t fucking McAtee.

So for the starting 11, that’s

Left back, centre mid, left wing (although Collins might go there in a 4231), right wing and striker.

A few ‘tweaks’ to this starting line up and we’re going nowhere again.

 

Collins has one more league goal and one more assist than McAtee. It baffles me how one is seen as being a class apart and the other wants chucking on a bonfire. They both have many of the same strengths and weaknesses.

Other than that I agree. There is a tendancy for all our players to be overrated because they might be good if we sign a much better player to play with them. So what? If Wigan sign a better than average L1 player in the positions you've listed they'll also challenge.

SS said it best 'we just need better players all over'.

37 minutes ago, Eddie said:

For what it’s worth, and for as bad as our defensive record has been this season, I think we’ve got centre backs that could make a decent traditional centre back partnership and although Cogley has limitations, I think as a right full back he’s also good enough.

I agree with most of that though I think you have let the centre backs off the problem is if your constantly changing them because of injuries then you won’t get any consistency and 3 of the 4 were always in and out and that’s unlikely to change if we stick with them 

43 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Any time a player is mentioned, there always seems to be a reluctance to just label them as shit. There’s always a “if we had a team of…”, “we’ve seen that they can do…”, “they’re the least of our problems”.

It’s admirable, and all very nice and let’s not call our players names, but we’ve just finished 8th in the league, 20 points off our aim for the season so there are areas of our team that are just shit, or at least shit compared to what we need to be where we aim to be in the league.

For what it’s worth, and for as bad as our defensive record has been this season, I think we’ve got centre backs that could make a decent traditional centre back partnership and although Cogley has limitations, I think as a right full back he’s also good enough.

We need a left back, obviously.

The defence hasn’t been helped by what’s in front of them, absolute weak as piss, chaotic shit show.

That starts in centre mid. You won’t get out of this league with an average centre midfield. Morley has proven that he can cut it at the top of this league in a decent team and also looked a cut above when he came back - he’s a starter. I like Dempsey but he’s never fit and not getting younger so he can go, I like Sheehan but he’s had his time for us and ultimately isn’t cut out when it comes to the fight of league 1 and for all the character GT gives you, he’s not good enough at football to be your starting centre mid that gets us out of this league - if we’d signed him from anywhere other than a semi pro outfit and he hadn’t turned down a move away then everybody would say the same.

So a new centre mid alongside Morley, and probably 1 or 2 more to bolster the squad. (Jury still out on Randall but I think he could prove to be decent in the 10 role with a proper centre mid partnership and a decent striker in front of him).

We’ve got no decent reliable wide players. Schon is shit, he offers nothing but he seems to get people sticking up for him because he waves his arms. Tutu is a 1 in 6/7 player and is poor for the rest of the time / injury prone - he gets backed because he got some full backs a yellow card in those 2 or 3 games in the season he showed up. We need better on both wings.

Then up top - everyone knows what a shit show so probably no need to emphasise. McAtee gets supported because he makes good runs or something, Vic is getting a bit of support the longer he’s been out, and Collins is the only bit of class we’ve got in the squad, he just needs a partner that isn’t fucking McAtee.

So for the starting 11, that’s

Left back, centre mid, left wing (although Collins might go there in a 4231), right wing and striker.

A few ‘tweaks’ to this starting line up and we’re going nowhere again.

Its hard to disagree with your general point, but your first paragraph and main argument is contradicted by your comments on Randall isn't it?  How does having a better centre mid partner make him a better player?  And this isn't me having a go at Randall, but if the main complaint is he's weak and flits in and out of games, and we bring in Gerrard to partner him and Drogba up front, Randall is still going to be dispossessed easily and be inconsistent/frustrating with his passing. 

I know its not you that's said this, but nobody can do his tackling for him, if you're in centre mid you have to be strong on the ball.  Ditto Sheehan, Collins, Schon, McAtee etc, their characteristics that we all complain about don't change depending on who we sign to play alongside them.  If you're weak or flimsy you don't get in the Wrexham/Stockport team - end of.

19 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

There is a tendancy for all our players to be overrated because they might be good if we sign a much better player to play with them.

Said a few days back, a squad can stand one or two who need this or that player around them to bring the best out of them. When you've half a dozen or more of those types, as we have, you've a problem.  

33 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

There is a tendancy for all our players to be overrated because they might be good if we sign a much better player to play with them

Or a tendency to be under-rated because we are judging them with the set of clones they are playing with? 

We could almost field a team of number 10s who all do the same thing.

 

37 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

 

Collins has one more league goal and one more assist than McAtee. It baffles me how one is seen as being a class apart and the other wants chucking on a bonfire. They both have many of the same strengths and weaknesses.

Other than that I agree. There is a tendancy for all our players to be overrated because they might be good if we sign a much better player to play with them. So what? If Wigan sign a better than average L1 player in the positions you've listed they'll also challenge.

SS said it best 'we just need better players all over'.

 

35 minutes ago, Farnywhite said:

I agree with most of that though I think you have let the centre backs off the problem is if your constantly changing them because of injuries then you won’t get any consistency and 3 of the 4 were always in and out and that’s unlikely to change if we stick with them 

 

23 minutes ago, Johnnyrotten said:

Its hard to disagree with your general point, but your first paragraph and main argument is contradicted by your comments on Randall isn't it?  How does having a better centre mid partner make him a better player?  And this isn't me having a go at Randall, but if the main complaint is he's weak and flits in and out of games, and we bring in Gerrard to partner him and Drogba up front, Randall is still going to be dispossessed easily and be inconsistent/frustrating with his passing. 

I know its not you that's said this, but nobody can do his tackling for him, if you're in centre mid you have to be strong on the ball.  Ditto Sheehan, Collins, Schon, McAtee etc, their characteristics that we all complain about don't change depending on who we sign to play alongside them.  If you're weak or flimsy you don't get in the Wrexham/Stockport team - end of.

I think I’ve just realised that I’m as fucking guilty as anyone 😂.

Get rid of the lot of them!

After Lostock White pointed out Derby, Ipswich and Plymouths achievements of promotion after previously not reaching the play-offs the season before…

I’ve just asked AI a quick question about whether their squads in the promotion year had significant contributions from the failures the year before…

I think it gives us some hope…

It's difficult to give an exact number without detailed squad lists for both the 2021/22 and 2022/23 seasons, but a significant portion of the players who contributed to Plymouth Argyle's promotion in the 2022/23 season were also part of the squad in the previous season. Many of those players, particularly the key players and those who played regularly in the 2021/22 season, were retained for the promotion campaign in 2022/23

 

In Ipswich Town's 22/23 promotion season, eight players from their 21/22 squad started at least 20 of the 23 league games. Among those, three players – Chaplin, Cameron Burgess, and Luke Woolfenden – started every single one. 

 

Several key players from Derby's 2022/23 squad played a regular role in their promotion-winning 2023/24 season, including Nathaniel Mendez-Laing and Eiran Cashin