Decline

[Ani]

@gonzo made a comment on other thread about us now and then. So compare Papa Johns team v yesterday, I know we might have injuries now but the comparison is scary. Fair to say we were better at loans then 

Keeper then Trafford now Baxter massive drop in quality and attitude. 

Centre halves then - prime santos ( think he did his calf climbing them steps ) Toal pre injury (just !) and Jones only survivor 

Now - Johnston, Firino and Jones - all 3 are imo lesser players than we had then. Jones is half the player he was

wing backs then Bradley and Declan John. Now JDC and Murphy. Bradley impossible act to follow, Murphy is just struggling so DJ was a better player imo

Midfield then - Sheehan Morley and Dempsey. Now Matete, Sharples Ahmed and Legohead. Clearly hit by injuries now as 3 were missing yesterday 

upfront Collins and Big Dave - Then Kachunga and Dion. Collins might be the only one I would take from yesterday although Kachunga had a great game at Wembley. No disrespect to big Dave but he is still a kid . 
 

IMO we are weaker in 10 out of 11 positions in 18 months. Hampered by injury and the team then was boosted by 2 exceptional loan signings but the overall drop off is shocking. 

[frank_spencer]

The drop off in quality of the players that are still here is the biggest kick in the pants.

[tomski]

Cheers to IE for this. 

[Zog1]

I was identifying stuff like this 2 years ago but because we were getting some good results by smashing the rubbish teams at the bottom of the league and our league position was "good enough" nobody wanted to hear.

I remember questioning if Charles really a normal 20 goals a season goal scorer or was our system basically feeding him goals.

Why our loans sucked after Trafford and Bradley, ignorning Maghoma (midseason).

I dont think the players really have dropped off, i just think League 1 teams got better at overcoming Evatt's one tactic, coupled with him taking the physicality and pace out of the team.

 

[Greg_BWFC]

7 minutes ago, tomski said:

Cheers to IE for this. 

Again, I want to give this a like, but I can't because I don't like it. 👍

[ianofcleveleys]

I've harped on about this elsewhere but in 21/22 we were finding our feet in L1. That squad contained younger and fresher Jones and Santos, a less injury ravaged Dempsey, Trafford, for part of it Morley and Charles, Lee, MJ, Bod, Bakayoko, Aimson, Dapo, Sadlier, John, Kachunga, a young Johnston and very young Thomason. 

Little wonder in my eyes why that squad ended up winning more, losing fewer games, scoring more goals and conceding fewer than this season's edition.

Solid operators throughout, a bit of experience, a bit of youth and a fair degree of nouse. 

Edited April 22, 2025 by ianofcleveleys

[Big E]

25 minutes ago, Zog1 said:

 

I dont think the players really have dropped off, i just think League 1 teams got better at overcoming Evatt's one tactic, coupled with him taking the physicality and pace out of the team.

 

Crazy to think teams would overcome the same tactics and substitutions week after week after week

[perth_white]

45 minutes ago, Zog1 said:

I was identifying stuff like this 2 years ago but because we were getting some good results by smashing the rubbish teams at the bottom of the league and our league position was "good enough" nobody wanted to hear.

I remember questioning if Charles really a normal 20 goals a season goal scorer or was our system basically feeding him goals.

Why our loans sucked after Trafford and Bradley, ignorning Maghoma (midseason).

I dont think the players really have dropped off, i just think League 1 teams got better at overcoming Evatt's one tactic, coupled with him taking the physicality and pace out of the team.

 

I'll buy you a hat! Seriously how many more times are you going to say I told you so?

[thebells]

At the risk of being overly rational, I think we need to find a bit of balance with the criticism here. This season has been disappointing compared to our expectations. In fact, it's probably been the hangover of all hangovers. Everyone lost their head after Wembley. Sharon went quiet (which may have felt sensible at the time but in hindsight led to supporters questioning anything and everything), supporters got ourselves into a serious negative mindset, effectively waiting for the first issue (which came against Huddersfield 4 games in), and IE lost his mind completely. It started with extreme weight loss and bizarre training ground behaviour, and culminated in a system change which wasn't needed.

For balance, this team has won 20 games this season, not that far off the top teams. The defeats column is the issue and points to the lack of resilience. I think we can look at the past through rose tinted spectacles sometimes. There's been a few mentions of Kachunga, for example, as being part of something good in the past. I have nothing against the fella, but he was heavily criticised throughout his time here.

There were also plenty, myself included, who had us down as play off definites and promotion possibles after the Brum game. There's even a thread on here about Baxter, lauding him, but he now seems to be the butt of a lot of criticism (rightly so after the free kick).

I suppose I'm trying to say we need to be careful not responding emotionally to the last few games, and view players over what they contributed before and, crucially, whether they can contribute in the future.

The core of our team is, in my mind, ok. Baxter (albeit i think he will leave), Southwood, Forino, Cogley, Forrester, Toal, Johnstone, Morley, Sheehan, Thomason, Dempsey are high level League One players (all have their limitations which is why they are League One players. Collins, Schon, Tutu and Adeboyejo are also close to that list for me and have something to offer. I think Abimbola may also break through next season, but it'll happen gradually rather than a running start. Beyond that, i think changes are needed. 

Loanees will go back, Coleman, Jones and Santos will leave and, I think, McAtee, Lolos, Randall and Mendes Gomes will probably all be sat down and told only 2 of them are needed.

I think the squad will evolve as we get towards end of August. I also think we may start slow and improve as the season progresses under SS next season. I've a million other thoughts but appreciate people don't want to read an essay.

Last thing. Some people on here (you know who you are 😉) were critical of our transfer dealings last summer, saying we were too slow whilst Rotherham snapped up all the best players. I think we will need to be patient this summer.

I'll wait with baited breath for the first person to read the full post and reply with a simple 'player x is shit' 🙂 

[Cheese]

1 hour ago, Zog1 said:

I was identifying stuff like this 2 years ago but because we were getting some good results by smashing the rubbish teams at the bottom of the league and our league position was "good enough" nobody wanted to hear.

I predict Steven Schumacher will get sacked at some point in the future.

[perth_white]

8 minutes ago, Cheese said:

I predict Steven Schumacher will get sacked at some point in the future.

Get in first for those sweet schadenfreude points. Good man!

[Zog1]

14 minutes ago, thebells said:

At the risk of being overly rational, I think we need to find a bit of balance with the criticism here. This season has been disappointing compared to our expectations. In fact, it's probably been the hangover of all hangovers. Everyone lost their head after Wembley. Sharon went quiet (which may have felt sensible at the time but in hindsight led to supporters questioning anything and everything), supporters got ourselves into a serious negative mindset, effectively waiting for the first issue (which came against Huddersfield 4 games in), and IE lost his mind completely. It started with extreme weight loss and bizarre training ground behaviour, and culminated in a system change which wasn't needed.

For balance, this team has won 20 games this season, not that far off the top teams. The defeats column is the issue and points to the lack of resilience. I think we can look at the past through rose tinted spectacles sometimes. There's been a few mentions of Kachunga, for example, as being part of something good in the past. I have nothing against the fella, but he was heavily criticised throughout his time here.

There were also plenty, myself included, who had us down as play off definites and promotion possibles after the Brum game. There's even a thread on here about Baxter, lauding him, but he now seems to be the butt of a lot of criticism (rightly so after the free kick).

I suppose I'm trying to say we need to be careful not responding emotionally to the last few games, and view players over what they contributed before and, crucially, whether they can contribute in the future.

The core of our team is, in my mind, ok. Baxter (albeit i think he will leave), Southwood, Forino, Cogley, Forrester, Toal, Johnstone, Morley, Sheehan, Thomason, Dempsey are high level League One players (all have their limitations which is why they are League One players. Collins, Schon, Tutu and Adeboyejo are also close to that list for me and have something to offer. I think Abimbola may also break through next season, but it'll happen gradually rather than a running start. Beyond that, i think changes are needed. 

Loanees will go back, Coleman, Jones and Santos will leave and, I think, McAtee, Lolos, Randall and Mendes Gomes will probably all be sat down and told only 2 of them are needed.

I think the squad will evolve as we get towards end of August. I also think we may start slow and improve as the season progresses under SS next season. I've a million other thoughts but appreciate people don't want to read an essay.

Last thing. Some people on here (you know who you are 😉) were critical of our transfer dealings last summer, saying we were too slow whilst Rotherham snapped up all the best players. I think we will need to be patient this summer.

I'll wait with baited breath for the first person to read the full post and reply with a simple 'player x is shit' 🙂 

I don't think there really was a hangover, we'd been poor since the start of 2024.

 

I think SS will bring in 3-5 free players quickly, ones he's worked with in the past, after that it'll be a long window.

[kent_white]

I'm not convinced that plate for player were much worse. We've just got three players who are almost identical in each position. 

[deeane Koontz]

All the inbalance just to cater to willy waver's summer tactical masterplan. What a monumental fuck up.

[ianofcleveleys]

23 minutes ago, thebells said:

think we can look at the past through rose tinted spectacles sometimes. There's been a few mentions of Kachunga, for example, as being part of something good in the past. I have nothing against the fella, but he was heavily criticised throughout his time here.

Not the intention, the point was that the squad in that season was one where we were happy if it established a foothold in L1 and top 10 would have been fine. It did what it had to do with the likes of John, Kachunga, Baka, whose mention was only to indicate how modest they were, not that they were key to good times. Plenty of the fanbase didn't rate them, as you rightly say.

Not an emotional response to this weekend and the recent weeks, just a factual example of us having ending up in a position of regression rather than progression, largely due to what transpired after Wembley but far from entirely. 

SS is in a far from ideal position, as he's indicated, but there is some room for a reset and reshape if those out of contract move on and even 2-3 are loaned out. It can be rectified, even if it's over both windows of next season

[thebells]

2 minutes ago, ianofcleveleys said:

Not the intention, the point was that the squad in that season was one where we were happy if it established a foothold in L1 and top 10 would have been fine. It did what it had to do with the likes of John, Kachunga, Baka, whose mention was only to indicate how modest they were, not that they were key to good times. Plenty of the fanbase didn't rate them, as you rightly say.

Not an emotional response to this weekend and the recent weeks, just a factual example of us having ending up in a position of regression rather than progression, largely due to what transpired after Wembley but far from entirely. 

SS is in a far from ideal position, as he's indicated, but there is some room for a reset and reshape if those out of contract move on and even 2-3 are loaned out. It can be rectified, even if it's over both windows of next season

Yep. None of it was aimed at you specifically. Your posts are always rational (my brain explodes with the emotional stuff - must check i have a heart at some point).

Funnily enough, was talking to my son about Baka last week. I thought he was fantastic for us off the bench, and exactly the type we could have done with this season.

Completely agree; it'll take two windows to sort. And, if i am honest, i see us as Play Off contenders next season rather than promotion contenders (reserve the right to change my mind 🙂)

[Ani]

35 minutes ago, Cheese said:

I predict Steven Schumacher will get sacked at some point in the future.

The irony is that if you were saying it two years ago you were wrong.

2 seasons ago we made the playoffs offs just

Last season we finished third and had a chance of straight up even on last day of the season.

You could see progress even though there were concerns. This season has seen a total reverse in fortunes, we have conceded more than Cambridge who are going down, last season we had a record number of consecutive clean sheets, Dion scored 20 goals 2 seasons in a run, this year apparently we have lost more games than Wigan. 

[Zico]

1 hour ago, Zog1 said:

I remember questioning if Charles really a normal 20 goals a season goal scorer or was our system basically feeding him goals.

I don't get the issue here

our system was getting him 20 goals a season, and you were questioning if he would score 20 goals if were we playing another system?

he scored 20 in one season for Accrington the season before we signed him as well

scored 16 a couple of times in National League North

he's a striker

 

[Zog1]

12 minutes ago, Ani said:

The irony is that if you were saying it two years ago you were wrong.

2 seasons ago we made the playoffs offs just

Last season we finished third and had a chance of straight up even on last day of the season.

You could see progress even though there were concerns. This season has seen a total reverse in fortunes, we have conceded more than Cambridge who are going down, last season we had a record number of consecutive clean sheets, Dion scored 20 goals 2 seasons in a run, this year apparently we have lost more games than Wigan. 

It's the Evatt illusion. The longer we were in the division, the more we signed players better able to play his system, the more we lost strength and pace throughout the team, the more time teams had to work that system out and its faults. The reason we look worse this year is because he took that system after the loss at Oxford and turned the volume upto 11, he doubled down on it.

 

5 minutes ago, Zico said:

I don't get the issue here

 

The issue is that the system which produced those goals for him, was broken and without it, i was questioning his abilities as a leading league one striker.

[Casino]

1 hour ago, thebells said:

At the risk of being overly rational, I think we need to find a bit of balance with the criticism here.

not for the first time, completely agree

 

its been a dreadful end to the season and who knows what has gone on - it definitely feels like something has

we should've definitely made the play offs from the position we got in 

the chopping and changing (by choice) of systems and personnel cant have helped especially when compounded by the number of players who keep breaking

 

 

fwiw, i didn't have another play off season in me, so im pretty happy its over

[Tombwfc]

It shows why you need to go up when you have the chance. Everyone (including me) was happy enough with the Papa John's win and progress in the league, but it was a missed opportunity considering we had £50m worth of loanees in the team.

Last season obviously speaks for itself. That must haunt Sharon and Evatt every day how different things might be if we'd remotely turned up at Wembley.

Every team has a shelf life and this one has crumbled since Oxford. And if you don't hit on replacements (which we haven't) then you're bound to go backwards.

[Zico]

1 hour ago, Zog1 said:

The issue is that the system which produced those goals for him, was broken and without it, i was questioning his abilities as a leading league one striker.

2 years ago?

[Stig]

1 hour ago, kent_white said:

I'm not convinced that plate for player were much worse. We've just got three players who are almost identical in each position. 

Good point. We had players on the bench in that final that offered us different ways of playing:

-MJ Williams as a defensive midfielder to break up play (and not much else in fairness!) that we've not replaced

-Kieran Lee. More attacking midfielder than the 3 who started and loads of experience higher up the leagues

-Jerome. Hold up striker we don't have now. Not to mention Bod who was injured but gave us that option also in other games.

Now we have identikit replacements. But the one area we are definitely weaker on imo is attack;

2023 - Charles, Kachunga, Jerome, Bod, Vic

2025 - Collins, McAtee, Etete, Vic

[Zog1]

7 minutes ago, Zico said:

2 years ago?

Yes.

[thebells]

17 minutes ago, Casino said:

not for the first time, completely agree

 

its been a dreadful end to the season and who knows what has gone on - it definitely feels like something has

we should've definitely made the play offs from the position we got in 

the chopping and changing (by choice) of systems and personnel cant have helped especially when compounded by the number of players who keep breaking

 

 

fwiw, i didn't have another play off season in me, so im pretty happy its over

Something possibly has gone on. I don't think we should underestimate the impact of those injuries. 6 first teamers out and a handful of periphery players. SS has had nothing on the bench and no pressure on those starting games.

Beyond that, i'd guess some have got the sense they aren't an SS player so aren't overly exerting and some can see the season fizzling and want to protect their bodies ahead of new deals at clubs / returning to parent clubs. Like much of our season, it's been a bit of a perfect storm.

Evatt deserved a crack at it this season, but I'll never get my head around that weird diamond thing he came up with in pre season.