Decline

[DazBob]

2 hours ago, Whitestar said:

Didn't the Decline start about 15 years ago?

Not in my book.

We hit rock bottom when we had a team of kids.  We'd been on an upward curve up until the last couple of months of last season.

[Johnnyrotten]

1 hour ago, thebells said:

Yes it did but, by the same definition, we've been on an ascent for the last 5 years. Whilst this year has gone backwards a little, the 4 before (statistically) were each better than the one before it. I'll take one backstep out of every 5 years

I appreciate the decent seasons we had in terms of Wembley and play offs twice, but it not the fact that we've taken a backwards step this season (that would have been finishing 4th and losing in play off semi for eg) but rather the backward step has wiped out all the progress in one go. 

We are worse than we were 3 years ago (not just referring to final league position but the unheard of 8 defeats in 10 or whatever it is, the minus goal difference and the regular thrashings).  

Its the opposite of what Charlton have done - 3 or 4 poor seasons then jumped up a dozen places in one go.  Not saying I'd take 3 or 4 bottom half seasons to then get upto 4th but the theory of improving season on season is useless if it leads nowhere but back to where you came from or worse.  As I say I'm not down-playing the cup win, but Posh have done that twice in 2 years, it doesn't represent real progress unless cups are the target.

[thebells]

I suppose it depends on your definition of decline / ascent.

We were in League 2 with 0 players only 4 years ago. By that token we have improved. The whole infrastructure of the club is light years beyond what it was.

Don't get me wrong - I wish we were a Champ club, and we 'should' have been based on the financial input. But I'd still argue we are much healthier than we were 5 years ago.

[thebells]

1 minute ago, Johnnyrotten said:

I appreciate the decent seasons we had in terms of Wembley and play offs twice, but it not the fact that we've taken a backwards step this season (that would have been finishing 4th and losing in play off semi for eg) but rather the backward step has wiped out all the progress in one go. 

We are worse than we were 3 years ago (not just referring to final league position but the unheard of 8 defeats in 10 or whatever it is, the minus goal difference and the regular thrashings).  

Its the opposite of what Charlton have done - 3 or 4 poor seasons then jumped up a dozen places in one go.  Not saying I'd take 3 or 4 bottom half seasons to then get upto 4th but the theory of improving season on season is useless if it leads nowhere but back to where you came from or worse.  As I say I'm not down-playing the cup win, but Posh have done that twice in 2 years, it doesn't represent real progress unless cups are the target.

Yep, i can't disagree with that. This season has been a monumental cock up. If we go backwards again next season, I'd be asking serious questions of manager / owners (and as a fellow bond man we should have exactly the chance to do that). I think, for me, I'm prepared to accept it as a step back and remain positive that next season we will move forward.

As I said somewhere else, whatever happens this summer, I won't have us down as promotion favs at all, and think a play off push might have to be a realistic aim.

I hope I am wrong, I really do. 

[frank_spencer]

4 hours ago, Whitestar said:

Didn't the Decline start about 15 years ago?

It's long but it's only 18 and a bit minutes long.

 

 

[Johnnyrotten]

1 hour ago, thebells said:

I suppose it depends on your definition of decline / ascent.

We were in League 2 with 0 players only 4 years ago. By that token we have improved. The whole infrastructure of the club is light years beyond what it was.

Don't get me wrong - I wish we were a Champ club, and we 'should' have been based on the financial input. But I'd still argue we are much healthier than we were 5 years ago.

No argument, we are healthier off the pitch.  I'm purely referring to on the pitch, and its unrealistic to compare with 5 years ago when we had no players, it would be impossible not to have progressed from bottom 6 of L2. 

If someone had said 4 years ago you'll be able to spend £5mil (approx) over 2 or 3 years, we'd all have been buzzing with the prospect of taking on L1 teams who have a fraction of that money.

And we did make decent progress for a couple of years as you say.  Then IE spent most of that money on the squad we are now left with.  So off the pitch yes its great, on the pitch thanks to IE (and the board's ridiculous loyalty to him) - we've gone backwards even to where we were 3 years ago IMO.  

[tomski]

Looking at our history any time in the bottom 2 divisions is bottom end/lean times. I see this as no different. Spent far too long down here. 

I understand no one has a devine right to go up but I can certainly call it out for what it is. Underachieving. 
 

 

[Farnywhite]

2 hours ago, Johnnyrotten said:

Then IE spent most of that money on the squad we are now left with.  So off the pitch yes its great, on the pitch thanks to IE (and the board's ridiculous loyalty to him) - we've gone backwards even to where we were 3 years ago IMO.  

It’s also landed us in debt when the idea was sustainability by being a trading club . 

[Tombwfc]

17 hours ago, Johnnyrotten said:

I appreciate the decent seasons we had in terms of Wembley and play offs twice, but it not the fact that we've taken a backwards step this season (that would have been finishing 4th and losing in play off semi for eg) but rather the backward step has wiped out all the progress in one go. 

We are worse than we were 3 years ago (not just referring to final league position but the unheard of 8 defeats in 10 or whatever it is, the minus goal difference and the regular thrashings).  

Its the opposite of what Charlton have done - 3 or 4 poor seasons then jumped up a dozen places in one go.  Not saying I'd take 3 or 4 bottom half seasons to then get upto 4th but the theory of improving season on season is useless if it leads nowhere but back to where you came from or worse.  As I say I'm not down-playing the cup win, but Posh have done that twice in 2 years, it doesn't represent real progress unless cups are the target.

 

I always thought there was a fair bit of Evatt/Sharon bollocks in the idea that we were steadily moving up the league. If you get to the play-off semis one year and the final the next, that's not saying you'll go one better the year after. It's just two missed chances to go up. I'm sure if you looked into it most promotion sides don't build in that way over years and years, they just have a good season and go up.

Which is good, because we're miles and miles off it now but it's nothing a very good summer couldn't fix.

[Zico]

20 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

 

I always thought there was a fair bit of Evatt/Sharon bollocks in the idea that we were steadily moving up the league. If you get to the play-off semis one year and the final the next, that's not saying you'll go one better the year after. It's just two missed chances to go up. I'm sure if you looked into it most promotion sides don't build in that way over years and years, they just have a good season and go up.

Which is good, because we're miles and miles off it now but it's nothing a very good summer couldn't fix.

 I thought it was progress in that one session we were challenging for top 6 but not top 2

The next season we were challenging for top 2

Either way

8th is a massive failure on everyone's part so fuck knows what the aim ought to be next season

[kent_white]

2 hours ago, Zico said:

 I thought it was progress in that one session we were challenging for top 6 but not top 2

The next season we were challenging for top 2

Either way

8th is a massive failure on everyone's part so fuck knows what the aim ought to be next season

I'd say play offs. 

I just can't see us being able to move enough dead wood on to challenge for the top two.....

[Tony]

Very disappointing season.

Massive under achievement. Poor signing, poor loans, so many injuries.

Shows how important it was for us to have Trafford and Bradley on loan.

SS has a massive task to turn this round over the summer, but it can be done.

[Whitestar]

Massive pressure on SS now though, ok nobody blaming him this season but if we're not buzzing around the top 3-4 by Christmas its going to be horrible atmosphere again and that rubs off on everyone at the club, this season has been more disappointing (IMO) than the last prem season.

[Johnnyrotten]

3 hours ago, Zico said:

 I thought it was progress in that one session we were challenging for top 6 but not top 2

The next season we were challenging for top 2

Either way

8th is a massive failure on everyone's part so fuck knows what the aim ought to be next season

Progress next season for me is being hard to beat, scoring a goal or 2 against someone that's any good who are actually treating it as a big game (unlike Brum this year) and generally having a stealy spine to the team. 

Not being pushovers, going into every game thinking we've got a chance of maximising our potential and not being blown away if the opposition are up for a battle.

[Johnnyrotten]

33 minutes ago, kent_white said:

I'd say play offs. 

I just can't see us being able to move enough dead wood on to challenge for the top two.....

Not to underplay getting into the play offs, but we could quite easily have finished 6th this season (eg by not conceding the pen at Reading and then a couple of other results) but nobody in their right mind would have said that made it a relatively successful season.  Our target if we're talking about play offs has to be to have a team that can actually compete in them, getting to them with our current weak, spineless team would be a waste of everyone's time.  I'd genuinely rather finish 8th than 6th with this team, so the target for me would be to have a team we are confident of competing in the play offs, wherever we finish. 

[Tombwfc]

3 hours ago, Zico said:

 I thought it was progress in that one session we were challenging for top 6 but not top 2

The next season we were challenging for top 2

 

The 5th placed team got 81 points and won a trophy, the 3rd placed team got 87 points. I don't think there's much between them and nothing to say that the Bradley/Trafford side wouldn't have also challenged if up against the same set of teams. Each season is totally different.

The idea of having a long term manager and steadily working your way up the leagues is an ideological thing from Sharon. But it's not really how it works. None of last seasons defeated playoff teams will be there this season, while teams who finished 10th, 11th, 16th & 17th will. 11 of the last 12 promoted managers will have been at their club in L1 for one season or less.

Odds are the best chance for Schuey to get us up will be next season on a wave of optimism with some fresh faces. Not going back through the process of getting in the playoffs one year, challenging the next etc.

[ianofcleveleys]

54 minutes ago, Johnnyrotten said:

Progress next season for me is being hard to beat, scoring a goal or 2 against someone that's any good who are actually treating it as a big game (unlike Brum this year) and generally having a stealy spine to the team. 

Not being pushovers, going into every game thinking we've got a chance of maximising our potential and not being blown away if the opposition are up for a battle.

Yep, all that stuff for me, scoring the big goals in the big games, 'nilling' the opponents, managing the game, being physical but canny with it, all the stuff we've been woeful at for the last couple of seasons. 

Having a squad that's fit and robust enough to last the course will help us a lot too. Our injury record last season and this has been atrocious and too many have faded at the business end.

[Zico]

30 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

 

The 5th placed team got 81 points and won a trophy, the 3rd placed team got 87 points. I don't think there's much between them and nothing to say that the Bradley/Trafford side wouldn't have also challenged if up against the same set of teams. Each season is totally different.

The idea of having a long term manager and steadily working your way up the leagues is an ideological thing from Sharon. But it's not really how it works. None of last seasons defeated playoff teams will be there this season, while teams who finished 10th, 11th, 16th & 17th will. 11 of the last 12 promoted managers will have been at their club in L1 for one season or less.

Odds are the best chance for Schuey to get us up will be next season on a wave of optimism with some fresh faces. Not going back through the process of getting in the playoffs one year, challenging the next etc.

the way I was looking at it was after each season under IE there was enough that had happened for us to aim "higher" the next season, given the state of the club when he came in it was always a work in progress or a project or whatever you want to clal it

that season we finished 5th we were nowhere near good enough to challenge the top 3

but did what we had to do to improve for the next season so we would be good enough to challenge

and we did and after finishing 3rd, there was every reason to think with the right pre season and transfers we absolutely should be aiming for top 2 and not just the play offs agin

it was certainly for me a good enough reason to keep IE after Oxford

as turns out, it wasn't a good move or pre season or transfer window

regardless, the clubs aim, has and always will be to get in the championship as soon as possible

so in that respect, they should do whatever SS feels is needed to make it a realistic aim

there's certainly no way we should be resetting, lowering expectations or "starting again"

[Rival Son]

2 hours ago, Whitestar said:

Massive pressure on SS now though, ok nobody blaming him this season but if we're not buzzing around the top 3-4 by Christmas its going to be horrible atmosphere again and that rubs off on everyone at the club, this season has been more disappointing (IMO) than the last prem season.

That depends on what SS is allowed to do. If he goes full Evatt, spunks £2million+ on players we don’t need and/or don’t deliver, and we’re not near the top at Christmas, then I agree.

However, if Sharon says there’s no more money in the pot and you can only spend what you can recoup by selling the garbage Evatt had bought, then I’m not going to blame for not creating a team of champions with £500k.

[gonzo]

2 hours ago, kent_white said:

I'd say play offs. 

I just can't see us being able to move enough dead wood on to challenge for the top two.....

Ah, the lesser spotted phrase dead wood 

This could easily be a thread after Dougie Freedman left having spaffed what little money we had on overpriced, overpaid mercenary shower of cunts.

 

[Cheese]

33 minutes ago, Rival Son said:

That depends on what SS is allowed to do. If he goes full Evatt, spunks £2million+ on players we don’t need and/or don’t deliver, and we’re not near the top at Christmas, then I agree.

However, if Sharon says there’s no more money in the pot and you can only spend what you can recoup by selling the garbage Evatt had bought, then I’m not going to blame for not creating a team of champions with £500k.

I'd be pleasantly stunned if Schumacher gets anything like the budget Evatt was given in his last couple of windows.

[Rival Son]

@Cheese

I’d be similarly surprised if he was, so it’s important we factor this into any judgement of his first season.

[Cheese]

5 minutes ago, Rival Son said:

@Cheese

I’d be similarly surprised if he was, so it’s important we factor this into any judgement of his first season.

Absolutely. But if the transfer policy he's given is "one in, one out" or something like that, he's fucked before we kick a ball. And fanbases have short memories.

[ianofcleveleys]

17 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Absolutely. But if the transfer policy he's given is "one in, one out" or something like that, he's fucked before we kick a ball. And fanbases have short memories.

There'll come a point where Sharon might have to say at least a little bit in the media about the climate Fergal and SS will be operating in, maybe when the dust's settled after next Saturday. An end of season 'note from the chairman' if you like. 

[Cheese]

5 minutes ago, ianofcleveleys said:

There'll come a point where Sharon might have to say at least a little bit in the media about the climate Fergal and SS will be operating in, maybe when the dust's settled after next Saturday. An end of season 'note from the chairman' if you like. 

We'll see.