Politics

[mickbrown]

2 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

You forgot the SNP a party of 100% fuckwits. 

To be fair to them, they are one of the big three. The LibDems are minnows

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Escobarp said:

Agreed. And get the ear muffs ready because the screeching and whining will be fever pitch when it happens

i will be drowning it out with my laughter for a period of time. 

As I’ve said yesterday let’s see how history then looks back at those who stopped Brexit from happening for so long 

 

i am am actually amazed we come from the same species at times seeing how some have and continue to behave. Certainly wasn’t how I was brought up to behave. 

Its really hard when people use language like that, to not think about historical events. Really hard. "If you don't think like me you must be from a different species". Really? Is that where you want to go?

Cos when people talk about extremist views of Brexiteers - that sort of language probably is why. 

I mean you think Brexit has to be honoured because a) you want it and b) people chose it. I get that. I see entirely your argument and I've said time and again my preference was for a sensible compromise deal to have been agreed. it wasn't. But now you can and will disagree but my view is that Brexit harm is not worth the situation we're in. You may totally disagree which is fair. But suggesting that makes me "unhuman" which is the inference from your post - I think that is completely unacceptable. Nor suggesting your upbringing was better. Accept that there are divergent views on all issues and that we can debate them furiously but ultimately, regardless of views or heated exchanges our democracy is in constant flux and one day there will be things you don't like that are democratically popular - and you will have every right to disagree vehemently with those and try to change them.  

[Mounts Kipper]

1 hour ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Its really hard when people use language like that, to not think about historical events. Really hard. "If you don't think like me you must be from a different species". Really? Is that where you want to go?

Cos when people talk about extremist views of Brexiteers - that sort of language probably is why. 

I mean you think Brexit has to be honoured because a) you want it and b) people chose it. I get that. I see entirely your argument and I've said time and again my preference was for a sensible compromise deal to have been agreed. it wasn't. But now you can and will disagree but my view is that Brexit harm is not worth the situation we're in. You may totally disagree which is fair. But suggesting that makes me "unhuman" which is the inference from your post - I think that is completely unacceptable. Nor suggesting your upbringing was better. Accept that there are divergent views on all issues and that we can debate them furiously but ultimately, regardless of views or heated exchanges our democracy is in constant flux and one day there will be things you don't like that are democratically popular - and you will have every right to disagree vehemently with those and try to change them.  

I would hate to meet you in real life, thankfully its never going to happen for both our sakes.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

I would hate to meet you in real live, thankfully its never going to happen for both our sakes.

😮

[Youri McAnespie]

Katananga! Katanga!

Umbutawanga!

Ayeeergh!

 

That was a Party Political Broadcast from The 80's Lenworth Henry Party

[MalcolmW]

Dennis Skinner will be father of the new HoC (unless he decides to retire, which he has neglected to do at every election this century).

[Moon boy]

2 hours ago, boltondiver said:

I predict

Tories largest party, but not a majority 

Brexit Party to win enough to create a majority with the Conservatives

 

 

I agree, too many unknowns during this GE though

 The weather on voting day  could affect turnout, especially for older voters, 

Some older voters who felt strongly during the Referendum will have passed away and some may feel having made the effort to get out and vote only to have their vote ignored may not bother this time

Natural Labour voters who voted Leave may find it hard to go Tory/TBP In Leave areas 

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Moon boy

[Escobarp]

1 hour ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Its really hard when people use language like that, to not think about historical events. Really hard. "If you don't think like me you must be from a different species". Really? Is that where you want to go?

Cos when people talk about extremist views of Brexiteers - that sort of language probably is why. 

I mean you think Brexit has to be honoured because a) you want it and b) people chose it. I get that. I see entirely your argument and I've said time and again my preference was for a sensible compromise deal to have been agreed. it wasn't. But now you can and will disagree but my view is that Brexit harm is not worth the situation we're in. You may totally disagree which is fair. But suggesting that makes me "unhuman" which is the inference from your post - I think that is completely unacceptable. Nor suggesting your upbringing was better. Accept that there are divergent views on all issues and that we can debate them furiously but ultimately, regardless of views or heated exchanges our democracy is in constant flux and one day there will be things you don't like that are democratically popular - and you will have every right to disagree vehemently with those and try to change them.  

Firstly why is anything I said about you? It’s not. So please don’t flatter yourself. 

Secondly it’s nothing to do with what people think. That’s HUMAN nature that we think differently. So again please point out where I mentioned in my post it was about thoughts. I’m pretty sure it was about behavior. 

 

Thanks again for for your input and attempt to completely change the meaning of my post 

Also can I ask you this   Scottish independence  there will be another referendum  and I will vote no  I will based upon all known facts today lose  

do you believe I will spend the following years post that referendum moaning about the result, protesting or trying to overturn that result and claiming everyone who voted to leave the union is thick old or a racist and importantly “doesn’t understand”? Yes or no will suffice  

i should have added added I was brought up for the early part of my life in a council house in the middle of Salford. I never believe my upbringing was better or worse than anyone else’s   It was simply my upbringing and how I personally was taught to behave. 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Escobarp

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

Firstly why is anything I said about you? It’s not. So please don’t flatter yourself. 

Secondly it’s nothing to do with what people think. That’s HUMAN nature that we think differently. So again please point out where I mentioned in my post it was about thoughts. I’m pretty sure it was about behavior. 

 

Thanks again for for your input and attempt to completely change the meaning of my post 

Also can I ask you this   Scottish independence  there will be another referendum  and I will vote no  I will based upon all known facts today lose  

do you believe I will spend the following years post that referendum moaning about the result, protesting or trying to overturn that result and claiming everyone who voted to leave the union is thick old or a racist and importantly “doesn’t understand”? Yes or no will suffice  

i should have added added I was brought up for the early part of my life in a council house in the middle of Salford. I never believe my upbringing was better or worse than anyone else’s   It was simply my upbringing and how I personally was taught to behave. 

What you do or don't - whatever that might be - there will be absolutely loads of people who in the event of a narrow Scotland vote for independence do protest and try to change it. Of course there would be. And as negotiations took place between UK and Scotland, we'd almost certainly make it as tough for them as possible to leave and the pro-union Scots would undoubtedly use that as "see this is a terrible idea." There is no doubt about it. Its human nature. What I'm also certain of is, you wouldn't suddenly change your mind and decide Scotland as an independent nation is an ace idea - and stay. And I'd bet that you'd express your opinion of the situation as it developed. 

Behaviour is generally linked to point of view. If your opinion is that Brexit is a bad idea and damaging to the UK - you might accept that in trying to overturn it you are in a bad place given the result of the referendum but your point of view maybe that the damage is too great to warrant being held to a poll - if there is a chance of getting a new democratic mandate. 

 

[Escobarp]

6 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

What you do or don't - whatever that might be - there will be absolutely loads of people who in the event of a narrow Scotland vote for independence do protest and try to change it. Of course there would be. And as negotiations took place between UK and Scotland, we'd almost certainly make it as tough for them as possible to leave and the pro-union Scots would undoubtedly use that as "see this is a terrible idea." There is no doubt about it. Its human nature. What I'm also certain of is, you wouldn't suddenly change your mind and decide Scotland as an independent nation is an ace idea - and stay. And I'd bet that you'd express your opinion of the situation as it developed. 

Behaviour is generally linked to point of view. If your opinion is that Brexit is a bad idea and damaging to the UK - you might accept that in trying to overturn it you are in a bad place given the result of the referendum but your point of view maybe that the damage is too great to warrant being held to a poll - if there is a chance of getting a new democratic mandate. 

 

The answer to my question that I asked is no I wouldn’t 

[frank_spencer]

The thing is the 2nd referendum is based on the knowledge we have now and with an idea if what leaving the EU actually entails.

I'm not for a rerun if the original question but either a straight vote on this deal or remain or a proportional representation style vote on remain / the deal / no deal.

That way there can be no argument along the lines of 'people didn't know what they were voting for when they voted to leave'.

I've been prepared to leave since the vote but for me the only way to settle the whole thing isn't a GE but a final say referendum. Mainly because I can see us being in the exact same position come December 13th as we are now.

[Escobarp]

1 minute ago, frank_spencer said:

The thing is the 2nd referendum is based on the knowledge we have now and with an idea if what leaving the EU actually entails.

I'm not for a rerun if the original question but either a straight vote on this deal or remain or a proportional representation style vote on remain / the deal / no deal.

That way there can be no argument along the lines of 'people didn't know what they were voting for when they voted to leave'.

I've been prepared to leave since the vote but for me the only way to settle the whole thing isn't a GE but a final say referendum. Mainly because I can see us being in the exact same position come December 13th as we are now.

Accept your viewpoint frank but how many people who voted to leave are actually saying they didn’t know what they voted for and want a 2nd vote? Surely that’s the key here? 

[Mounts Kipper]

8 minutes ago, frank_spencer said:

The thing is the 2nd referendum is based on the knowledge we have now and with an idea if what leaving the EU actually entails.

I'm not for a rerun if the original question but either a straight vote on this deal or remain or a proportional representation style vote on remain / the deal / no deal.

That way there can be no argument along the lines of 'people didn't know what they were voting for when they voted to leave'.

I've been prepared to leave since the vote but for me the only way to settle the whole thing isn't a GE but a final say referendum. Mainly because I can see us being in the exact same position come December 13th as we are now.

The election is just that, vote Tory for the Johnson deal to leave, vote Liberal to revoke and remain and vote labour for a referendum and vote Brexit party for a clean break. 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[MalcolmW]

13 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

The election is just that, vote Tory for the Johnson deal to leave, vote Liberal to revoke and remain and vote labour for a referendum and vote Brexit party for a clean break. 

Surely negotiating the best deal and then recommending to remain is a Monster Raving Loony Party policy? No, my mistake it is the Labour Party policy

[Tonge moor green jacket]

12 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

Accept your viewpoint frank but how many people who voted to leave are actually saying they didn’t know what they voted for and want a 2nd vote? Surely that’s the key here? 

Additionally, the claim that we now know what it involves doesn't wholly stack up.

Very few of us will fully read the WA, nor the additional documents for the next phase. Not will they watch the select committees, not fully know what the joint committees will agree to during the implementation period.

I caught a few minutes of the joint select committee this morning. It was enlightening as I've learned just how much flexibility and movement there is to be had, and that (for example) why these customs declarations have come about, how they may be managed and how they may even be of benefit going forward.

That's why the referendum couldn't really be anything other than an in/out decision.

Just like the first one some 40 years ago. No one knew then what would happen and how the EU would come into being.

No one knows where we'll be in 5, 10 or 15 years; we can only vote on a simple decision, and then rely on politicians to work, from then on, on that basis.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

1 minute ago, MalcolmW said:

Surely negotiating the best deal and then recommending to remain is a Monster Raving Loony Party policy? No, my mistake it is the Labour Party policy

Yep. The EU will really roll over and agree a magnificent deal on the basis that it would be rejected.

Seems to be a remain fait accompli. Laughable.

[royal white]

How many people know of folk who would change their vote if there was a second referendum? I think spider would knowing what he does now (apologies if wrong) but does anyone know anyone who would change from leave to remain and vice Versa. 
 

I personally know 4 who would go remain to leave, not that they want to leave but they say they respect the first vote and and it should be respected. 

[Escobarp]

2 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Additionally, the claim that we now know what it involves doesn't wholly stack up.

Very few of us will fully read the WA, nor the additional documents for the next phase. Not will they watch the select committees, not fully know what the joint committees will agree to during the implementation period.

I caught a few minutes of the joint select committee this morning. It was enlightening as I've learned just how much flexibility and movement there is to be had, and that (for example) why these customs declarations have come about, how they may be managed and how they may even be of benefit going forward.

That's why the referendum couldn't really be anything other than an in/out decision.

Just like the first one some 40 years ago. No one knew then what would happen and how the EU would come into being.

No one knows where we'll be in 5, 10 or 15 years; we can only vote on a simple decision, and then rely on politicians to work, from then on, on that basis.

Absolutely spot on and the basis for a large number of my conversations on this very topic usually prompted by the “you didn’t know what you were voting for” 

 

Not sure if it’s done to try and rile people or not but it’s actually quite an arrogant statement for anyone to make to assume somebody else’s belief or understanding of a situation. 

But the more this goes on the more I wholeheartedly realise the people who are vociferous in their belief to remain genuinely believe anyone who voted to leave is as they say thick or racist. I wouldn’t say either applies to me but of course they know best. 

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

The election is just that, vote Tory for the Johnson deal to leave, vote Liberal to revoke and remain and vote labour for a referendum and vote Brexit party for a clean break. 

The issue is that the "winner" might get say 32% of the vote...which means - whatever happens a minority of the country will likely choose....

[Escobarp]

5 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

The issue is that the "winner" might get say 32% of the vote...which means - whatever happens a minority of the country will likely choose....

But did the “majority” not already choose? So does your argument not fall down straight away? Or did I not realise what I was doing when I voted? 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

A perverse argument than if 32% vote that a minority have made a decision.

It's a decision for everyone to make; vote or don't vote.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

But did the “majority” not already choose? So does your argument not fall down straight away? Or did I not realise what I was doing when I voted? 

Ok lets say something strange occurs and Labour win a majority of 9/10 seats. On say 31% of the vote - highly unlikely but not impossible.

Their manifesto will be based on negotiating a better deal then having a referendum. One assumes they would carry that out. Based on winning the general election on their manifesto. With 31% of the vote. 

Should that happen - what is it you'd expect them to do? They campaigned and "won" on the basis of their plan. 

That's why I don't think a GE is a good resolution. Its trying to map binary choices onto a more complex vote in a more complex FPTP system. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

A perverse argument than if 32% vote that a minority have made a decision.

It's a decision for everyone to make; vote or don't vote.

Why is it perverse? A party could "win" with less than a third of the votes. Theoretically other parties combined offering a remain or Brexit option could have got more votes. It doesn't mirror a referendum and whoever wins will claim it does and whoever loses will claim it doesn't. Its messy and not a definitive public answer. IMHO.

General elections are not good vehicles when fought on singular issues. Perhaps the Tories will win over 50% of the popular vote and in which case my point is moot. But otherwise you're going to be in a situation where potentially you are claiming a mandate for this on a third of the votes. Whilst of course that always happens - its more difficult when you are looking at a singular issue and trying to claim the election result to be a "pseudo referendum". 

[Salford Trotter]

1 hour ago, Escobarp said:

Absolutely spot on and the basis for a large number of my conversations on this very topic usually prompted by the “you didn’t know what you were voting for” 

 

Not sure if it’s done to try and rile people or not but it’s actually quite an arrogant statement for anyone to make to assume somebody else’s belief or understanding of a situation. 

But the more this goes on the more I wholeheartedly realise the people who are vociferous in their belief to remain genuinely believe anyone who voted to leave is as they say thick or racist. I wouldn’t say either applies to me but of course they know best. 

And of course no one is accusing you as being either of those but I have genuine questions for you and others Leavers should they care to answer

Did you really understand the impact on the economy before the vote considering no one that I listened to was sharing a negative economic impact post leaving? If fact, it was portrayed as the complete opposite (win:win) with the prospect of these mega trade deals being signed within months. 

How familiar were you with the impact that this would have had on Northern Ireland? I had never heard of the term Customs Union prior to the referendum and to be honest it was only after the result did I start to understand the implications of such a union and I don't consider myself as thick either.

If I told you before you voted that the UK economy would be hit to the tune of £70b - £115b in terms of reduced GDP growth when compared to staying in the EU would you have put that down as Project Fear? Sadly we will be faced with that scenario if we leave on Johnson's deal  

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Salford Trotter

[Escobarp]

30 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Ok lets say something strange occurs and Labour win a majority of 9/10 seats. On say 31% of the vote - highly unlikely but not impossible.

Their manifesto will be based on negotiating a better deal then having a referendum. One assumes they would carry that out. Based on winning the general election on their manifesto. With 31% of the vote. 

Should that happen - what is it you'd expect them to do? They campaigned and "won" on the basis of their plan. 

That's why I don't think a GE is a good resolution. Its trying to map binary choices onto a more complex vote in a more complex FPTP system. 

It’s very simple to me but then again I appear to be quite a simple person

the rules of the general election are set out clearly as to how to gain a majority and how what this then entitles them to do  there can be no valid argument from despite is not being how I voted or what I would want  so they exercise that democratic mandate and I get on with making the best of the situation  

The referendum in 2016 gave a clear choice of leave or remain  everybody knew the rules of engagement and what the vote was  but because of upset a few people we are still here 3.5 years later and now heading for a general election because of it  

if people  had accepted the decision much the same as I will accept if labour get into power and we have a second vote or lib undems get in and revoke. 

I just as I stated cannot accept the behavior of people who knew the system and what they were voting for but because it didn’t pan out as they wish they kick and scream and obstruct democracy  

as I’ve said many time I had no time for politics and still really don’t tbh but I have strong principles and there are a large number of people who should be utterly ashamed in my opinion  

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2019 by Escobarp