Port Vale (A)

[ianofcleveleys]

1 hour ago, Eagle85 said:

Also the rest of league one this year.

Huddersfield and Luton with similar expectations finding it tough. Plymouth a disaster all year and now on a great run once it seemed like any chance of promotion was off the table so pressure was gone. The current top 2 include a team nobody expected and the other, whilst a big(ish) club, still get poor crowds for an established championship team that's been top for most of the season.

Big clubs with similar expectations promoted from league 1 last few years - Sunderland needed playoffs, Sheff Weds needed playoffs, Derby needed multiple ugly/nervy 1-0 wins to scrape 2nd. Birmingham last year the obvious exception.

We have a reasonable number of players who've had enough experience of either playing for us or for others in testing atmospheres. Sheehan and Toal, for example, have played internationals in places like Turkey, Belgium, Macedonia. Dalby played 30-odd SPL games including ones at Rangers and Celtic. 

But, I dont think SS has brought in as many course and distance operators as he intimated he needed in Summer,  and at times we have looked a side light on guile and nouse. 

A feature of SS's Plymouth side was an ability to shithouse their way to a result if they weren't playing well. They did it to us at ours in that 0-0 draw. We've very rarely looked like a side able to do that sort of thing and manage our way to a win or draw.

[Johnnyrotten]

3 minutes ago, ianofcleveleys said:

We have a reasonable number of players who've had enough experience of either playing for us or for others in testing atmospheres. Sheehan and Toal, for example, have played internationals in places like Turkey, Belgium, Macedonia. Dalby played 30-odd SPL games including ones at Rangers and Celtic. 

But, I dont think SS has brought in as many course and distance operators as he intimated he needed in Summer,  and at times we have looked a side light on guile and nouse. 

A feature of SS's Plymouth side was an ability to shithouse their way to a result if they weren't playing well. They did it to us at ours in that 0-0 draw. We've very rarely looked like a side able to do that sort of thing and manage our way to a win or draw.

Although if you play for Northern Ireland there isn't a pressure to win, its the equivalent of playing for Brentford or Bournemouth and playing games at Old Trafford or Anfield.  Yes they are big crowds, big games but you aren't expected to dictate the game, be on the front foot and have the pressure of crowd expectations.

Dalby playing for Dundee Utd at Celtic the same - being the underdog is what you want, not being the favourite with an expectant crowd.

FWIW I don't think its an issue anyway, we're kidding ourselves if we think some players aren't good at shooting, crossing, heading or tackling because they are put off by playing for Bolton.  Its their level, end of, IMO.  I've not seen many players improving when they've left here or being worse here than they were elsewhere.  But they can play better as a unit if the manager plays them in their correct positions and gives them a chance to defend solidly with better organisation.

[ianofcleveleys]

22 minutes ago, Johnnyrotten said:

Although if you play for Northern Ireland there isn't a pressure to win, its the equivalent of playing for Brentford or Bournemouth and playing games at Old Trafford or Anfield.  Yes they are big crowds, big games but you aren't expected to dictate the game, be on the front foot and have the pressure of crowd expectations.

Dalby playing for Dundee Utd at Celtic the same - being the underdog is what you want, not being the favourite with an expectant crowd.

FWIW I don't think its an issue anyway, we're kidding ourselves if we think some players aren't good at shooting, crossing, heading or tackling because they are put off by playing for Bolton.  Its their level, end of, IMO.  I've not seen many players improving when they've left here or being worse here than they were elsewhere.  But they can play better as a unit if the manager plays them in their correct positions and gives them a chance to defend solidly with better organisation.

Indeed, they're at their level, are trying but in some cases hindered by being asked to do things that aren't their strength. 

True that there's a different dynamic to most of Toal, Sheehan and Dalby's experiences, though there's been plenty on Wales and NI's recent games, even if the crowd noise is more fervent hope than expectation.

As I said though, more of an issue that we're still short of the sort of experience and know how that gets you out of the lower leagues

[desperado]

17 hours ago, paulhanley said:

If you lose against the marooned bottom of the table side while chasing promotion the mood afterwards is going to be sour - players, fans, everyone associated. On top of that we know that the number 1 aim of getting up automatically is gone.

But 24-48 hours of this and then we have to draw a line. Everyone. We are going to be in a play off scrap with a clutch of sides in form as equally unconvincing as ours. We need to get the play off place secured and than it is all up for grabs. We will not take advantage of the chance that remains open to us if we dwell and allow the mood to fester.

The last twice we got promoted through the play offs there were days towards the end of the regular season that were dreadful. I recall a miserable 3-1 defeat at Oldham and 1-0 defeat at Tranmere in the year we beat Reading at Wembley (94/5). Not to mention a grim 1-1 home draw to an already relegated Burnley. Under Big Sam (2000/01, win v Preston at Cardiff) we went a good part of that Spring unable to get a win over the line in a home fixture. That included blowing one or two solid winning positions.

None of this matters if we get in the play offs and get to the Championship. And those things have less chance of happening if we all wallow and maintain a low mood. By all means be angry and sulk for a bit yet. I will join you. But it cannot go on...as a fanbase we need to look forward to the crucial seven or eight weeks ahead and do what we can to create the right atmosphere in the 90 minutes. 

 

8 hours ago, ianofcleveleys said:

Indeed, they're at their level, are trying but in some cases hindered by being asked to do things that aren't their strength. 

True that there's a different dynamic to most of Toal, Sheehan and Dalby's experiences, though there's been plenty on Wales and NI's recent games, even if the crowd noise is more fervent hope than expectation.

As I said though, more of an issue that we're still short of the sort of experience and know how that gets you out of the lower leagues

The only thing we can say for sure at the moment is that we’re not good enough to win consistently to finish in the top two. We’ll only know by the end of May whether we have enough to get out of this league.

As Paul says above In 95 and in 2001 round about this time in the season we had no consistency and some terrible results. 

Anyway has this 24-48 hour period not passed yet? 😂

Edited Monday at 07:56 by desperado

[Rizlar]

We can’t change the result move on more games to come.

[Ani]

1 hour ago, desperado said:

 

The only thing we can say for sure at the moment is that we’re not good enough to win consistently to finish in the top two. We’ll only know by the end of May whether we have enough to get out of this league.

As Paul says above In 95 and in 2001 round about this time in the season we had no consistency and some terrible results. 

Anyway has this 24-48 hour period not passed yet? 😂

24-48 rule extended due to International break 

[gonzo]

I'd be giving the some rest if I was SS.

Let em all go away and get some sun.

They look knackered.

[desperado]

17 minutes ago, Ani said:

24-48 rule extended due to International break 

I was thinking that, without saying it out loud 🤣👍

[Whitesince63]

10 hours ago, Johnnyrotten said:

Although if you play for Northern Ireland there isn't a pressure to win, its the equivalent of playing for Brentford or Bournemouth and playing games at Old Trafford or Anfield.  Yes they are big crowds, big games but you aren't expected to dictate the game, be on the front foot and have the pressure of crowd expectations.

Dalby playing for Dundee Utd at Celtic the same - being the underdog is what you want, not being the favourite with an expectant crowd.

FWIW I don't think its an issue anyway, we're kidding ourselves if we think some players aren't good at shooting, crossing, heading or tackling because they are put off by playing for Bolton.  Its their level, end of, IMO.  I've not seen many players improving when they've left here or being worse here than they were elsewhere.  But they can play better as a unit if the manager plays them in their correct positions and gives them a chance to defend solidly with better organisation.

Will Forrester’s not doing too bad at Orient, Captain now and leading them on a run away from the lower reaches. Bad decision for me letting Will go, the best all round defender we had by a mile and certainly better than the likes of Toal and could have fitted in at full back instead of the useless Tutu.

[gonzo]

 

Not just us moaning

[Dr. Feelgood]

18 minutes ago, Whitesince63 said:

Will Forrester’s not doing too bad at Orient, Captain now and leading them on a run away from the lower reaches. Bad decision for me letting Will go, the best all round defender we had by a mile and certainly better than the likes of Toal and could have fitted in at full back instead of the useless Tutu.

At the risk of "absent players get better everything game they don't play" Forrester seemed to get the rough end of every decision. He's a very decent player & I didn't understand his constant  omission or sale.

[gonzo]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Feelgood said:

At the risk of "absent players get better everything game they don't play" Forrester seemed to get the rough end of every decision. He's a very decent player & I didn't understand his constant  omission or sale.

Never one for this normally and I'm not even sure what foot he is. But he's better than Eoin Toal.

Whatever division we are in we need to move away from him and GJ. They are real problem for me.

[JimmyRiddle]

1 hour ago, gonzo said:

They look knackered.

They do, which is weird, as earlier in the season I was thinking all this rotation whilst possibly confusing at the time will pay dividends when  we batter teams in March and April who have smaller squads!! 😂

 

 

Edited Monday at 10:52 by JimmyRiddle

[Zog1]

People talking about the centre backs not being fast enough blows me away, were Mark Beevers
and David Wheater fast? no, but they got us promoted first time. Atleast one of them went up for every corner too.

Our centre backs are good enough to get promoted from league 1, we have the 3rd best defence in the league without a proper right back and left back in a back 4. 

The problem is in the quality of our chance creation. Blasting in goals like ACD/Gale/Apter (wants to) from 30 yards looks great but how many real goal scoring opportunites were sniffed out long before they could begin to facilitate that. How many through balls, crosses and overlaps were ignored so that someone could cut inside to blast it at the first man. 

We have almost double the amounts of shots than 6th place Stevenage. This is the problem. 

[gonzo]

It's not the speed of Toal and GJ that's the problem.

It's their dithering and flapping that's the problem. Toals head goes under any form of physical pressure. GJ can barely kick the football in a straight line.

Neither are particularly good in the air.

[Johnnyrotten]

1 hour ago, Whitesince63 said:

Will Forrester’s not doing too bad at Orient, Captain now and leading them on a run away from the lower reaches. Bad decision for me letting Will go, the best all round defender we had by a mile and certainly better than the likes of Toal and could have fitted in at full back instead of the useless Tutu.

I've no problem with Forrester and he's arguably as good or better than some of our's on his day.

But he's only played 2 of the last 4 of Orient's games, he's either been injured (again) or not first choice.  The last 5 games that he played prior to these recent 4, they won 1, drew 1 and lost 3.  So its slightly misleading to say he's leading them on a run away from the lower reaches. 

If he'd played at Vale, he would have been up for the corner that we conceded from, and he would have been launching it to Dalby's ahead instead of Toal doing it, as instructed by SS.  We'd have been criticising him after the game, rightly or wrongly, saying we need better defenders.

[RUREADY2ROLL]

35 minutes ago, Johnnyrotten said:

I've no problem with Forrester and he's arguably as good or better than some of our's on his day.

But he's only played 2 of the last 4 of Orient's games, he's either been injured (again) or not first choice.  The last 5 games that he played prior to these recent 4, they won 1, drew 1 and lost 3.  So its slightly misleading to say he's leading them on a run away from the lower reaches. 

If he'd played at Vale, he would have been up for the corner that we conceded from, and he would have been launching it to Dalby's ahead instead of Toal doing it, as instructed by SS.  We'd have been criticising him after the game, rightly or wrongly, saying we need better defenders.

Exactly; it’s SS that’s costing us with ridiculous team selections and tactics. He fucked it up last season and can see us missing out on the playoffs once again

[Whitesince63]

Fair points and he did suffer an injury when he went there but to be fair he hadn’t played much before he did go. Orient must see something in him to replace retiring Omar Bogle as captain and now he’s fit he seems to be getting on fine. For me I thought he was a proper defender, headed everything, tackled hard and got blocks in. What teally hacked me off was when Jones returned from his jaunt with Australia, Evatt put him straight back in despite the fact Will had been our stand out defender. That was probably what made his mind up to move on, it certainly would have me. Whilst I accept that he wasn’t as good going forward as Jones he was for me a much more reliable defender and it’s proper defenders that we’re lacking in my opinion. Clearly neither Evatt nor Schuey agreed with me and probably others won’t too but for me Forrester is a miss and one we should have kept.

[gonzo]

33 minutes ago, RUREADY2ROLL said:

Exactly; it’s SS that’s costing us with ridiculous team selections and tactics. He fucked it up last season and can see us missing out on the playoffs once again

A bit dramatic.

[jmjhb]

With Forrester it was a combination of his injury record and wanting first team football. Just one that didn't really work out, no-one's fault really.

He would have gone for nowt in the summer anyway so we've saved 5 months' wages

[tomski]

1 hour ago, gonzo said:

A bit dramatic.

A bit 😂

[Ani]

3 hours ago, gonzo said:

Never one for this normally and I'm not even sure what foot he is. But he's better than Eoin Toal.

Whatever division we are in we need to move away from him and GJ. They are real problem for me.

The problem with Toal and GJ to some extent is they are being asked to more than just defend. I am a broken record on this but with 2 in midfield there is rarely an easy progressive ball into midfield. Sheehan, EE and Simons all tend to drop deep (some would say they hide), so the only option the Centre halves have is knocking around at the back or long balls. Not sure either of them have the long cross field ball as something they can deliver. 
It was clear on Saturday Vale were happy our defence having the ball and they picked up all the scraps. The pace of our play does not help. Even with 3 in there at times Saturday we were resorting to launching the ball. Think we even bought Christie on as his delivery is better than the others 

It has taken me 2 days find anything positive after Saturday, but given how bad our record against the lower teams has been this season we must be doing ok against the rest to be third. In the reverse fixtures against the 7 we have left we won 3 drew 3 and lost 1. 
 

one question was TSL better than Bonham ? 

[Whitesince63]

28 minutes ago, Ani said:

The problem with Toal and GJ to some extent is they are being asked to more than just defend. I am a broken record on this but with 2 in midfield there is rarely an easy progressive ball into midfield. Sheehan, EE and Simons all tend to drop deep (some would say they hide), so the only option the Centre halves have is knocking around at the back or long balls. Not sure either of them have the long cross field ball as something they can deliver. 
It was clear on Saturday Vale were happy our defence having the ball and they picked up all the scraps. The pace of our play does not help. Even with 3 in there at times Saturday we were resorting to launching the ball. Think we even bought Christie on as his delivery is better than the others 

It has taken me 2 days find anything positive after Saturday, but given how bad our record against the lower teams has been this season we must be doing ok against the rest to be third. In the reverse fixtures against the 7 we have left we won 3 drew 3 and lost 1. 
 

one question was TSL better than Bonham ? 

Sadly not much of a choice that Ani because I don’t think either are good enough.

[Tombwfc]

2 hours ago, Zog1 said:

People talking about the centre backs not being fast enough blows me away, were Mark Beevers
and David Wheater fast? no, but they got us promoted first time. Atleast one of them went up for every corner too.

Our centre backs are good enough to get promoted from league 1, we have the 3rd best defence in the league without a proper right back and left back in a back 4. 

The problem is in the quality of our chance creation. Blasting in goals like ACD/Gale/Apter (wants to) from 30 yards looks great but how many real goal scoring opportunites were sniffed out long before they could begin to facilitate that. How many through balls, crosses and overlaps were ignored so that someone could cut inside to blast it at the first man. 

We have almost double the amounts of shots than 6th place Stevenage. This is the problem. 

 

Those stats don't happen in isolation though. Teams generally score first against us, they then sit back and we have a load of shots trying to get back into it. 

We've conceded in 72% of our games this season, which is the same as Port Vale. We concede first in 43% of all our matches. If you chuck in last season, we've conceded first in over 50% of our league games under SS. Given how shit teams in the third tier are - and how many would take 0-0 against us - that's nowhere near automatic promotion standard.

Our strikers aren't prolific by any means, but they're having to score two goals every game to win which is unsustainable. Especially when it's always coming from behind against teams who have something to hold on to.

The defensive stats look good in terms of goals conceded. But generally when teams want to score against us they do. Orient and Blackpool at home recently scored almost the instant they put an attack together, and that's the kind of thing which has been happening all season.

[bwfc4ife]

I find it mental that everyones only just waking up to Johnston being shit. I've been saying this for months and getting pelters. The problem is he's good enough as a bench warmer not a starter. He wins a lot of headers to be fair to him but its just a case of getting anything on it and lacks any composure whatsoever. When he's against someone with pace he's fucked. 

Toal often looks like a deer in the headlights, gets bullied to easily. The centre halves we have need to be big lads that are happy having a scrap and setting the tone. Especially away at places like last saturday and mansfield et all. No nonsense, win the battle.

Our defence is weak as piss and has been all season. Both full back options aren't good enough and that should've been addressed in January. Once we realised how shite Taylor was, we should've brought in another full back. At least one would've been enough.

For all the Conway love, i think he's wank. Forever out of position, not quick enough to get back and doesn't add an awful lot going forward despite being out of position constantly. 2 assists in 35 appearances? Same on the other side with Tutu, 1 assist and 1 goal. They can both beat a man but it rarely comes to anything and their defending is just comical at times. Is conway really that much better than Murphy from last season (he was shite)?

I'd much rather have a solid back line that can defend first and foremost. Don't concede and are a threat on set plays.