mickbrown Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 I honestly don’t see what the big issue. It’s not going to change our lives so don’t see why folk get wound up about. Doesn’t change our lives? Where do you think the money for education, armed forces and NHS come from? HMRC reckon they are missing out on at least 30 odd billion. Some bloke on the radio reckons that’s a massive underestimation and it’s more like 120 billion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bolty58 Posted November 7, 2017 Members Share Posted November 7, 2017 Doesn’t change our lives? Where do you think the money for education, armed forces and NHS come from? HMRC reckon they are missing out on at least 30 odd billion. Some bloke on the radio reckons that’s a massive underestimation and it’s more like 120 billion. .......and a bloke in my local pub reckons it's 500 billion. None of us like paying taxes and if a tax effective strategy was available to any one of us we would take it. Admit it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traf Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 It's not like for like though, is it? I don't think the barmaid (38DD) declaring that I bought her a drink and Lewis Hamilton avoiding £4m VAT have the same effect of the HMRC and effectively the country's economy. They're similar/related "crimes" but pinching a bird's arse isn't gang rape either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 In one traf and a lovely analogy too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big E Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 How many of the folk having a meltdown about tax avoidance will then illegally download content such as TV and Music Again, the irony Exactly. i would hazard a guess the most vocal all have KODI or similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big E Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 Doesn’t change our lives? Where do you think the money for education, armed forces and NHS come from? HMRC reckon they are missing out on at least 30 odd billion. Some bloke on the radio reckons that’s a massive underestimation and it’s more like 120 billion. it comes from the system which is currently working. Kids seem to be being educated and hospitals seem to be running. Kicking off that people are LEGALLY doing what they do isn't going to change that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickbrown Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 it comes from the system which is currently working. Kids seem to be being educated and hospitals seem to be running. Kicking off that people are LEGALLY doing what they do isn't going to change that Is it working? We’re supposedly skint. We charging grannies more rent because she’s got an extra bedroom in her council flat yet letting millionaires take the piss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickbrown Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 .......and a bloke in my local pub reckons it's 500 billion. None of us like paying taxes and if a tax effective strategy was available to any one of us we would take it. Admit it. But there not available to all are they? Whilst legal they are basically loopholes that those with money can pay blokes to exploit. Like I posted earlier if it’s a loophole close it. If it’s illegal jail them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter Tonge moor green jacket Posted November 7, 2017 Site Supporter Share Posted November 7, 2017 I pay AVCs into my pension and i get tax relief as a result. Am i morally corrupt or am i just being sensible by saving a bit extra for my retirement? Pensions are different though. You'll pay income tax on it later on if your pension is large enough. Everyone should pay income tax once government allowances are accounted for. As stated elsewhere close the 'legal' loopholes that are clearly allowing folk to avoid paying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Zico Posted November 7, 2017 Moderators Share Posted November 7, 2017 How many of the folk having a meltdown about tax avoidance will then illegally download content such as TV and Music Again, the irony out of interest, do you think that folk who play it straight all the way (and plenty do - pay tax, pay for sky, pay for music) have a valid gripe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickbrown Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 And I posted this last time we had that debate and it still sums it up perfectly for me From Obama "This is important stuff ... A lot of it is legal, but that’s exactly the problem. It’s not that they’re breaking the laws, it’s that the laws are so poorly designed that they allow people, if they’ve got enough lawyers and enough accountants, to wiggle out of responsibilities that ordinary citizens are having to abide by. When politicians perpetuate a system that favours the wealthy at the expense of the middle class, it’s not surprising that people feel like they can’t get ahead." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birch-chorley Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 It's not like for like though, is it? I don't think the barmaid (38DD) declaring that I bought her a drink and Lewis Hamilton avoiding £4m VAT have the same effect of the HMRC and effectively the country's economy. They're similar/related "crimes" but pinching a bird's arse isn't gang rape either. Your right they are t like for like The barmaid not declaring 20% of her income is illegal, Lewis Hamilton using legal tax avoidance schemes to avoid a similar % of his income isn’t Even if you put the whole evasion / avoidance stuff to one side, morally speaking who sets the bar to what’s an acceptable level or not then? The barmaids ok not declaring £2k. A tradesman not declaring £20k, a small business not declaring £50k? For me if your going to sit in an ivory tower and moan about the rich people and big businesses then you should make sure you’ve got clean hands. I don’t buy into all this a little bits all right jack but loads is a hideous act bollocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Casino Posted November 7, 2017 Moderators Share Posted November 7, 2017 and hamilton will be paying plenty more than the barmaid for the same returns from the state right or wrong, i understand the tax take is currently higher than its ever been despite rates being relatively low? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gonzo Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 Your right they are t like for like The barmaid not declaring 20% of her income is illegal, Lewis Hamilton using legal tax avoidance schemes to avoid a similar % of his income isn’t Even if you put the whole evasion / avoidance stuff to one side, morally speaking who sets the bar to what’s an acceptable level or not then? The barmaids ok not declaring £2k. A tradesman not declaring £20k, a small business not declaring £50k? For me if your going to sit in an ivory tower and moan about the rich people and big businesses then you should make sure you’ve got clean hands. I don’t buy into all this a little bits all right jack but loads is a hideous act bollocks I don't think you realise actually hard it is to hide £50,000 as a small business. We've had the discussion a million times before but it's not the free for all you seem to think it is. You can't just not pay tax. If it was all that simple the whole world would be a self employed plumber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birch-chorley Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 I don't think you realise actually hard it is to hide £50,000 as a small business. We've had the discussion a million times before but it's not the free for all you seem to think it is. You can't just not pay tax. If it was all that simple the whole world would be a self employed plumber. We’ve had it a million times before but still you miss my point Which is, the only people who can really moan about these rich people and big business are the ones who are squeaky clean themselves. That rules out a whole load of people who are moaning I’m really not that bothered about a plumber not declaring some income, but if the same plumber then goes on fb to rant about Starbucks then he’s a hypocrite The last figures I saw from the ONS had Tax evasion from SME’s costing the government coffers more than the tax loophole side. For no other reason than we have millions of SME’s. If we are going to have social outrage then let’s make sure it’s ballanced top and bottom rather than just being directed one way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickbrown Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 We’ve had it a million times before but still you miss my point Which is, the only people who can really moan about these rich people and big business are the ones who are squeaky clean themselves. That rules out a whole load of people who are moaning I’m really not that bothered about a plumber not declaring some income, but if the same plumber then goes on fb to rant about Starbucks then he’s a hypocrite The last figures I saw from the ONS had Tax evasion from SME’s costing the government coffers more than the tax loophole side. For no other reason than we have millions of SME’s. If we are going to have social outrage then let’s make sure it’s ballanced top and bottom rather than just being directed one way So next time there's a thread about benefit cheats I take it you won't be weighing in? Unless of course you are one of these squeaky clean folk you mention? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birch-chorley Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) So next time there's a thread about benefit cheats I take it you won't be weighing in? Unless of course you are one of these squeaky clean folk you mention? I see benefit cheating differently as you are fraudulently trying to take someone else’s money out of the system The whole tax thing feels a bit different to me. We all feel like it’s our own money that we are paying into the system so we try to keep as much of it as possible if that’s through legal tax avoidance schemes like pensions etc or dare I say illegally trying to avoid tax by offering your plumber cash in hand (as an example) If someone is deliberate misleading the DWP to get money out of the system that feels morally worse for me Edited November 7, 2017 by birch-chorley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickbrown Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 I see benefit cheating differently as you are fraudulently trying to take someone else’s money out of the system The whole tax thing feels a bit different to me. We all feel like it’s our own money that we are paying into the system so we try to keep as much of it as possible if that’s through legal tax avoidance schemes like pensions etc or dare I say illegally trying to avoid tax by offering your plumber cash in hand (as an example) If someone is deliberate misleading the DWP to get money out of the system that feels morally worse for me Interesting take on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madthatter Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 I see benefit cheating differently as you are fraudulently trying to take someone else’s money out of the system The whole tax thing feels a bit different to me. We all feel like it’s our own money that we are paying into the system so we try to keep as much of it as possible if that’s through legal tax avoidance schemes like pensions etc or dare I say illegally trying to avoid tax by offering your plumber cash in hand (as an example) If someone is deliberate misleading the DWP to get money out of the system that feels morally worse for me Two sides of the same coin would be how I see that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter MickyD Posted November 7, 2017 Site Supporter Share Posted November 7, 2017 If Eddie falls fowl of the 90 day rule then he will be paying tax, and seeing that hes at most of the games I would say he is If he flies in and flies out in, say, 6 hours, does that count as a day or 25% of a day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birch-chorley Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 Two sides of the same coin would be how I see that. So fraudulently claiming benefits is the same as legally avoiding tax by paying into a personal pension scheme They couldn’t be more different for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Site Supporter MickyD Posted November 7, 2017 Site Supporter Share Posted November 7, 2017 I see benefit cheating differently as you are fraudulently trying to take someone else’s money out of the system The whole tax thing feels a bit different to me. We all feel like it’s our own money that we are paying into the system so we try to keep as much of it as possible if that’s through legal tax avoidance schemes like pensions etc or dare I say illegally trying to avoid tax by offering your plumber cash in hand (as an example) If someone is deliberate misleading the DWP to get money out of the system that feels morally worse for me Two sides of the same coin would be how I see that. So fraudulently claiming benefits is the same as legally avoiding tax by paying into a personal pension scheme They couldn’t be more different for me One is preventing the money that OUGHT to be in the coffers from going in the pot. One is taking out of the pot which OUGHT not to be going out. The benefit cheat are often the poorest in society, the tax avoiders often the richest. I know which I'd be throwing most money at in order to prevent the pot diminishing but I'm not sure the Government would throw their money at the same end of society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madthatter Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 So fraudulently claiming benefits is the same as legally avoiding tax by paying into a personal pension scheme They couldn’t be more different for me More the bit about taking from the system. If it's all above board and legal then who wouldn't do it? To use the plumber e.g. if you save a few quid by paying cash is that all that different from cheating benefits? I'm a hypocrite mind, as I would 'happily' do the former but wouldn't do the latter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyldesley_white Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 Micky it used to be classed as a day, but I really not looked at the 90 ruling in years, because I spend as little time in the UK as I can, I bet I've not done 90 days in the last 10 years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Zico Posted November 7, 2017 Moderators Share Posted November 7, 2017 I see benefit cheating differently as you are fraudulently trying to take someone else’s money out of the system The whole tax thing feels a bit different to me. We all feel like it’s our own money that we are paying into the system so we try to keep as much of it as possible if that’s through legal tax avoidance schemes like pensions etc or dare I say illegally trying to avoid tax by offering your plumber cash in hand (as an example) If someone is deliberate misleading the DWP to get money out of the system that feels morally worse for me it's probably because you work for a big corporate, and aren't on benefits maybe if it was the other way round, you'd see things differently, neither is worse or better than the other I'm neither on benefits or working for a big corporate and has it happens think both are being arseholes not going to moan though, I am not squeaky clean - but it's too easy to deflect a pop at tax avoiders by saying everyone else is at it at the other end of the scale plenty are, plenty aren't those who are squeaky clean though, they have valid moans when it comes to these tax loopholes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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