Coronavirus

[RoadRunnerFan]

22 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

Not sure who is actually saying anyone is the head of anything? I’ve not seen one thing since this started that led me to believe there was any person in particular holding sway in this, in terms of devising the strategy. Obviously boris has the final say as should be the case but I’m not seeing him as either an autocrat or someone who isn’t bringing in the relevant experts and importantly is listening to them 

My take is that it’s a group of several people and various organizations represented that are then formulating opinions which are then discussed with the government and a strategy agreed upon 

maybe I’m reading it all wrong of course. Or maybe my take on it isn’t something that can be sensationalized into something it’s not  

I do think the coverage is a bit sensationalist.

My take on it having read (some of the relevant sections of) the Terms of Reference for SAGE is that its role is to provide impartial Scientific advice to the decision making body COBRA. So the issue with Cummings is that he is involved at the wrong stage and compromising the impartial nature of the advice.

Governance makes accountancy seem Rock n Roll.

Edited April 26, 2020 by RoadRunnerFan

[Escobarp]

4 minutes ago, RoadRunnerFan said:

I do think the coverage is a bit sensationalist.

My take on it having read (some of the relevant sections of) the Terms of Reference for SAGE is that its role is to provide impartial Scientific advice to the decision making body COBRA. So the issue with Cummings is that he is involved at the wrong stage and compromising the impartial nature of the advice.

Governance makes accountancy seem Rock n Roll.

Firstly why he is there or it is deemed appropriate for him to be there I really don’t know. Maybe in some oversight role as a “trusted advisor” which he evidently is? To ensure that it’s being run as the government would wish maybe and report back any concerns?
 

secondly I’m not sure what impact he could have on the science? The science is the science. I can’t imagine anybody worth their salt who wants to raise something within the committee is going to be silenced by Cummings or anyone else. 
 

To use a random comparison it’s like corbyn, who I despite, being part of this committee. I would question why he was there and where the validity in his appointment was. 100%.  But would I sit saying it was flawed because he was part of it or that he was imparting undue influence? Nope because he wouldn’t be because I trust the committee and the people within it with the necessary expertise to facilitate its role to function as it’s set out to do. 

[Ani]

1 hour ago, Mounts Kipper said:

Don’t blame them, as long as they practice social distancing and act sensibly, it’s time to unwind this lockdown in the next few weeks. 

You should end that with ‘although I am not a scientist’. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by Ani

[RoadRunnerFan]

2 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

Firstly why he is there or it is deemed appropriate for him to be there I really don’t know. Maybe in some oversight role as a “trusted advisor” which he evidently is? To ensure that it’s being run as the government would wish maybe and report back any concerns?
 

secondly I’m not sure what impact he could have on the science? The science is the science. I can’t imagine anybody worth their salt who wants to raise something within the committee is going to be silenced by Cummings or anyone else. 
 

To use a random comparison it’s like corbyn, who I despite, being part of this committee. I would question why he was there and where the validity in his appointment was. 100%.  But would I sit saying it was flawed because he was part of it or that he was imparting undue influence? Nope because he wouldn’t be because I trust the committee and the people within it with the necessary expertise to facilitate its role to function as it’s set out to do. 

I'm not expressing a view I'm just going off the ToR.

That's the place to start for discussion on whether someone should be on a particular committee isn't it? 

I appreciate it's dull though. 

[Escobarp]

Just now, RoadRunnerFan said:

I'm not expressing a view I'm just going off the ToR.

That's the place to start for discussion on whether someone should be on a particular committee isn't it? 

I appreciate it's dull though. 

I want questioning you apologies
 

I was just responding with my own take and thoughts on it

agree the terms of reference and scope should be the starting point. But there is as you point out a need for governance and my thoughts are is that the role of Cummings in this rather than advisory?

[ZiggyStardust]

5 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

secondly I’m not sure what impact he could have on the science? The science is the science. I can’t imagine anybody worth their salt who wants to raise something within the committee is going to be silenced by Cummings or anyone else. 

You obviously do not understand anything.

This is how it works:

Scientist: ... So the latest research shows that the earliest a vaccine will be available is probly Q2 2021. This obviously means that our advice would be to continue as is, and slowly east the restrictions, whilst monitoring the situation .... yes Dominic ?

Cummings: Mumbles something.

Scientist: So we are agreed, our expert advice will be to inject Dettol. We will stake our professional reputations on this. Show of hands ?

passes unanimously.

[Escobarp]

4 minutes ago, ZiggyStardust said:

You obviously do not understand anything.

This is how it works:

Scientist: ... So the latest research shows that the earliest a vaccine will be available is probly Q2 2021. This obviously means that our advice would be to continue as is, and slowly east the restrictions, whilst monitoring the situation .... yes Dominic ?

Cummings: Mumbles something.

Scientist: So we are agreed, our expert advice will be to inject Dettol. We will stake our professional reputations on this. Show of hands ?

passes unanimously.

Thank you for joining the dots up for me. I knew I was missing something 
 

I now wholeheartedly agree with those wetting their knickers over his participation. 

[RoadRunnerFan]

20 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

I want questioning you apologies
 

I was just responding with my own take and thoughts on it

agree the terms of reference and scope should be the starting point. But there is as you point out a need for governance and my thoughts are is that the role of Cummings in this rather than advisory?

No need to apologise Esco I'm more than happy to be held to account on my interpretation.

The ToR's do say consideration should be given to admission of other experts such as communications to help communicate outputs to the public, but they are not included in the list in Annex E which is caveated as non exhaustive. Cummings is not a Spin Doctor anyway - that's Lee Cain. 

Issue is that anonymous members are said to be unhappy with his presence (yes I know it's The Guardian saying it).

https://www.gov.uk › groups › scien...
Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) - GOV.UK

ToR are at the above, page 18 and annex E deal with membership, page 36 with the governance structure. 

Edited April 26, 2020 by RoadRunnerFan

[RoadRunnerFan]

Feck me governance is a conversation killer ain't it just......🤣

[snowball]

1 hour ago, Farrelli said:

I’ve just thrown up! 

was taking the piss like everyone else does in here. knowing how much he loves bolty. 

[RoadRunnerFan]

2 minutes ago, snowball said:

was taking the piss like everyone else does in here. knowing how much he loves bolty. 

"It was a sarcastic response, very sarcastic, perhaps the most sarcastic response I've ever made." 😂

[stevieb]

Lefties in early april 'we are too late locking down' 

Lefties end of April 'tell us when we can exit lock down'... 

It's political point scoring en masse this. The governments original stance was herd immunity, delay the measures because people would only have a limited window of adhering to it. 

They've been bang on!

I live on an A road. Traffic this week has majorly kicked up and today has been like a usual Sunday. No mad rush hours this week but increased traffic is noticeable. 

The behavioural science is a big factor in the government's original plan. We've had a lockdown light and folk are still losing their shit with it. 

I'm still going end of May primary schools open. Gatherings under 50 people, or some arbitrary figure, permitted. 

 

 

[Cheese]

9 minutes ago, stevieb said:

Lefties in early april 'we are too late locking down' 

Lefties end of April 'tell us when we can exit lock down'... 

It's political point scoring en masse this.

He says, whilst attemptng to score some political points.

[stevieb]

20 minutes ago, Cheese said:

He says, whilst attemptng to score some political points.

No. Not really pal. We're pretty much following the same path of every western country whether lleft or right leaning. 

Is it the wrong move? Who the fuck knows. Is it the current government's fault or the fact that everyone seems to be following others and the WHO? Who the fuck knows. 

Is now the time to be arguing over the minutiae of it all? No. 

 

[mickbrown]

7 minutes ago, stevieb said:

No. Not really pal. We're pretty much following the same path of every western country whether lleft or right leaning. 

Is it the wrong move? Who the fuck knows. Is it the current government's fault or the fact that everyone seems to be following others and the WHO? Who the fuck knows. 

Is now the time to be arguing over the minutiae of it all? No. 

 

So why lefty this, left that?

Edited April 26, 2020 by mickbrown

[RoadRunnerFan]

38 minutes ago, stevieb said:

Lefties in early april 'we are too late locking down' 

Lefties end of April 'tell us when we can exit lock 

 

Come on Stevie lad play fair....

First sentence probably right.

Second sentence, Starmer is asking 'What is the strategy?' But the call to come out is coming from Business who are Shirley more aligned with the right? 

[stevieb]

5 minutes ago, mickbrown said:

So why lefty this, left that?

Because they seem to be banging the drum of 'show us your exit strategy'. 

 

 

[only1swanny]

41 minutes ago, stevieb said:

I'm still going end of May primary schools open. Gatherings under 50 people, or some arbitrary figure, permitted. 

 

 

 

Primary schools... doubt it..  When the classrooms are set out for exams they are the same spacings as social distancing.. You get about 10 kids for a class.. so each school would need 3 times as many classrooms, 3 times as many teachers..

Having taught kids post lockdown (older ones at that), it's clear social distancing wouldn't work, which would launch us back into the same situation 

[stevieb]

1 minute ago, RoadRunnerFan said:

Come on Stevie lad play fair....

First sentence probably right.

Second sentence, Starmer is asking 'What is the strategy?' But the call to come out is coming from Business who are Shirley more aligned with the right? 

Fair do's. I'll accept that. 

Is it too early to publish an exit strategy that the moment the dates shift everyone see their arse? 

 

[mickbrown]

1 minute ago, stevieb said:

Because they seem to be banging the drum of 'show us your exit strategy'. 

 

 

Think you're being very selective there.

You read any Toby Young recently? Alison Pearson?

I don't think exiting lockdown is a right v left issue

[mickbrown]

2 minutes ago, only1swanny said:

 

Primary schools... doubt it..  When the classrooms are set out for exams they are the same spacings as social distancing.. You get about 10 kids for a class.. so each school would need 3 times as many classrooms, 3 times as many teachers..

Having taught kids post lockdown (older ones at that), it's clear social distancing wouldn't work, which would launch us back into the same situation 

You're back in teaching?

[stevieb]

1 minute ago, only1swanny said:

 

Primary schools... doubt it..  When the classrooms are set out for exams they are the same spacings as social distancing.. You get about 10 kids for a class.. so each school would need 3 times as many classrooms, 3 times as many teachers..

Having taught kids post lockdown (older ones at that), it's clear social distancing wouldn't work, which would launch us back into the same situation 

Depends on whether you are intending to kill the virus (impossible) or limit its spread and find some sort of balance between protecting your health care ability and having any sort of economy going whenever a vaccine is largely available. 

I'd say most countries are going route 2 under the guise of route 1, 

[RoadRunnerFan]

Just now, stevieb said:

Fair do's. I'll accept that. 

Is it too early to publish an exit strategy that the moment the dates shift everyone see their arse? 

 

No I think they are playing it pretty well to be fair, talking about the 5 tests, and criteria rather than fixed timelines as it's so (potentially) volatile.

It's still Starmer's job to hold them to account mind. Unless you favour a one party state? 

[only1swanny]

2 minutes ago, stevieb said:

Depends on whether you are intending to kill the virus (impossible) or limit its spread and find some sort of balance between protecting your health care ability and having any sort of economy going whenever a vaccine is largely available. 

I'd say most countries are going route 2 under the guise of route 1, 

 

I genuinely believe the reason for the sudden rise was through schools.. That week long period from people starting to show symptoms to the school closing was the worst working week of my life. 

about 10 million school kids wondering around spreading it and passing it onto people.. will cause a second surge without a doubt. 

 

MB - Yes i left, then retrained as a computer science teacher, then retrained again as a maths specialist.. I work in a secondary school in Salford.. (My views are my own and do not reflect the school in any way shape of form :P) I do the carpet cleaning and leather work part time as I'm trying to pay my mortgage off quickly. 

[mickbrown]

Just now, only1swanny said:

 

I genuinely believe the reason for the sudden rise was through schools.. That week long period from people starting to show symptoms to the school closing was the worst working week of my life. 

about 10 million school kids wondering around spreading it and passing it onto people.. will cause a second surge without a doubt. 

 

MB - Yes i left, then retrained as a computer science teacher, then retrained again as a maths specialist.. I work in a secondary school in Salford.. (My views are my own and do not reflect the school in any way shape of form :P) I do the carpet cleaning and leather work part time as I'm trying to pay my mortgage off quickly. 

No, I mean you're in now teaching kids?