The NHS

[Spider]

So it’s not the fault of the government?

Aye, ok.

[DirtySanchez]

2 hours ago, globaldiver said:

It’s clearly an organised attempt by the public sector, or near public sector, unions, to undermine and replace a democratically-elected government.

For the NHS, there is an agreed, independent, review process, that doesn’t involve the government, so why would a government be involved? So that the unions can say that the government won’t negotiate.

This years pay review was published in July when inflation was 10.1%, but takes into account factors up to April, when inflation was 9%. 

This is not to do with pay, inflation, working conditions, although they are important, the common denominator is politics.

Link to 2022 pay review.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1092270/NHSPRB_2022_Accessible.pdf

Doesn't the government set the parameters in which they can review pay ie budget, inflation etc?

So not totally independent 

[globaldiver]

1 minute ago, DirtySanchez said:

Doesn't the government set the parameters in which they can review pay ie budget, inflation etc?

So not totally independent 

Clearly, but it has been agreed every year until this, as far as I’m aware. 
 

Those in the body on behalf of employees in the NHS won’t be independent either.

Here are the members, I don’t know who is who;

Philippa Hird (Chair)
Richard Cooper
Patricia Gordon
Neville Hounsome
Stephanie Marston
Anne Phillimore
Stephen Boyle
Professor Karen Mumford CBE
 

 

[DirtySanchez]

1 minute ago, globaldiver said:

Clearly, but it has been agreed every year until this, as far as I’m aware. 
 

Those in the body on behalf of employees in the NHS won’t be independent either.

Here are the members, I don’t know who is who;

Philippa Hird (Chair)
Richard Cooper
Patricia Gordon
Neville Hounsome
Stephanie Marston
Anne Phillimore
Stephen Boyle
Professor Karen Mumford CBE
 

 

Jeremy Hunt rejected it when he was Health Secretary 

[Cheese]

1 minute ago, globaldiver said:

Clearly, but it has been agreed every year until this, as far as I’m aware. 

But you said it was "independent" - which it isn't - and "doesn't involve the Government" - which it does.

[mickbrown]

11 minutes ago, globaldiver said:

Clearly, but it has been agreed every year until this, as far as I’m aware. 
 

Those in the body on behalf of employees in the NHS won’t be independent either.

Here are the members, I don’t know who is who;

Philippa Hird (Chair)
Richard Cooper
Patricia Gordon
Neville Hounsome
Stephanie Marston
Anne Phillimore
Stephen Boyle
Professor Karen Mumford CBE
 

 

The last one dresses like a 19th century navvy.

[Spider]

In the end, the government are in charge of it.

One of the great offices of state is purely there to manage the NHS.

If it’s falling to its knees, it’s uk to the government to sort it.

They haven’t. They’ve watched it fall to its knees and are now gazing on like spice monkeys as the whole organisation dies with its face in the mud.

[Farrelli]

https://www.gov.scot/news/nhs-staff-offered-record-high-pay-rise/
 

The Scottish government negotiated a counter pay increase that prevented strikes in Scotland. That is what a government should be doing. The UK government are refusing to negotiate. We shouldn’t be surprised as they have form for this with their Brexit negotiations with the EU. That ended with a poor deal which they now want to change unilaterally. They are useless.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Farrelli

[kent_white]

3 hours ago, globaldiver said:

Not everyone, I don’t think the local Trusts were on strike? Happy to be corrected.

I noticed that some around Liverpool were.

No Bolton wasn't. But I think we will be if they ballot again. And that 'independent' pay review body you're talking about is far from independent (see below for an example).

[Casino]

11 hours ago, Jol_BWFC said:

Inflation rate is expected to drop significantly from the middle of this year. I expect the Government is playing for time. But playing with fire.

I dont get this argument at all

Inflation may fall, but prices generally wont come down

Maybe somebody brighter than me could explain

[lobbypond]

The local pisscan had a ambulance and fire engine called out to him last week presumably because his family couldn't get hold of him again. Pissed out of his head. Lost track of the amount of time he's had emergency services around.

 

A few months the ago there was 3 police cars around his flat because his brother couldn't get in touch and assumed he was panned out inside... he was down the pub.

[Jol_BWFC]

29 minutes ago, Casino said:

I dont get this argument at all

Inflation may fall, but prices generally wont come down

Maybe somebody brighter than me could explain

It’s all about headlines and perception, rather than actual prices and costs.

If you want an inflation matching pay rise, it will cost you 10% plus at the moment. If inflation is at 6% later in the year, an offer of a 5% pay rise looks like it’s almost matching inflation. Suddenly a request of a 10% pay rise when inflation is 6% looks unreasonable.

You, I and those with a basic understanding of maths and/or economics knows it’s bullshit and that you’d need to look back at historic inflation and pay for the true picture; but the Daily Mail readers and anti-union types will lap it up.

Remember the headlines about the criminal barristers getting a 15% pay rise and how it was outrageous? But the truth was far from it.

[little whitt]

17 hours ago, royal white said:

Get the nightingales back up.

the one in London Only Ever Took 9 people 

and had no Staff to Man Them 

[little whitt]

5 hours ago, globaldiver said:

Not everyone, I don’t think the local Trusts were on strike? Happy to be corrected.

I noticed that some around Liverpool were.

Thats cause they where in LIVERPOOL 

[kent_white]

5 hours ago, globaldiver said:

Clearly, but it has been agreed every year until this, as far as I’m aware. 

No it was agreed this year it was just shit. We haven't had a pay rise in line with inflation for a long, long time. See the post I made a few weeks ago! 

NHS staff: "Can we have a pay rise in line with inflation please?"

Tory governments:

2010: no 
2011: no
2012: no 
2013: no 
2014: no
2015: no 
2016: no
2017: no
2018: no
2019: no
2020: no but 👏
2021: no 
2022: no

So in other words - our wages have lost value every year since 2010. And that's with an 'independent' pay review body. Which someone has rightly pointed out - has it's parameters set by the government and gets frequent pressure put onto it by ministers. It would need to be a pay rise of about 30%, just to bring us back into line with what we've lost since the Tories came in. 

And the reason being trotted out is that we can't be paid what we are worth (or what market forces are clearly demanding) because it would be an inflationary pressure. 

So effectively - we're taking a hit on behalf of the country. 

[globaldiver]

1 minute ago, kent_white said:

No it was agreed this year it was just shit. We haven't had a pay rise in line with inflation for a long, long time. See the post I made a few weeks ago! 

NHS staff: "Can we have a pay rise in line with inflation please?"

Tory governments:

2010: no 
2011: no
2012: no 
2013: no 
2014: no
2015: no 
2016: no
2017: no
2018: no
2019: no
2020: no but 👏
2021: no 
2022: no

So in other words - our wages have lost value every year since 2010. And that's with an 'independent' pay review body. Which someone has rightly pointed out - has it's parameters set by the government and gets frequent pressure put onto it by ministers. It would need to be a pay rise of about 30%, just to bring us back into line with what we've lost since the Tories came in. 

And the reason being trotted out is that we can't be paid what we are worth (or what market forces are clearly demanding) because it would be an inflationary pressure. 

So effectively - we're taking a hit on behalf of the country. 

I’ll find a link to the overall situation since 2010, nurses are about 4.5% down v inflation, on average.

What I can find is the position prior to 2010. My guess would be that they did pretty well under Blair/Brown. Any assistance in finding appreciated.

And then there’s the 20.4% contribution to NHS pension.

[globaldiver]

10 minutes ago, globaldiver said:

I’ll find a link to the overall situation since 2010, nurses are about 4.5% down v inflation, on average.

What I can find is the position prior to 2010. My guess would be that they did pretty well under Blair/Brown. Any assistance in finding appreciated.

And then there’s the 20.4% contribution to NHS pension.

Here it is, not 4.5%, about 5.2%, I was out walking, apologies.

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/chart/nhs-staff-pay-and-the-cost-of-living-compared-to-2010

 

 

[globaldiver]

9 minutes ago, globaldiver said:

Here it is, not 4.5%, about 5.2%, I was out walking, apologies.

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/chart/nhs-staff-pay-and-the-cost-of-living-compared-to-2010

 

 

I’ve noticed that there is a longer term comparison embedded in the text, hopefully it’s here;

 

[kent_white]

29 minutes ago, globaldiver said:

I’ve noticed that there is a longer term comparison embedded in the text, hopefully it’s here;

 

Yeah this is what I was talking about. Paid under the rate of inflation for over a decade. Not sure what's happening with pay in 19/20? I think that was when agenda for change happened. 

Like I said - to make up for the loss - you'd need to increase NHS wages by about 30%. You can put it back down to 9% or whatever inflation is once our deficit has been paid off!  Most of us would be fine with just being paid in line with inflation. Despite the fact that most of us are doing the work of more than one member of staff because of shortages. 

[globaldiver]

4 minutes ago, kent_white said:

Yeah this is what I was talking about. Paid under the rate of inflation for over a decade. Not sure what's happening with pay in 19/20? I think that was when agenda for change happened. 

Like I said - to make up for the loss - you'd need to increase NHS wages by about 30%. You can put it back down to 9% or whatever inflation is once our deficit has been paid off!  Most of us would be fine with just being paid in line with inflation. Despite the fact that most of us are doing the work of more than one member of staff because of shortages. 

It’s 5.2%, from the link.

[globaldiver]

Just now, globaldiver said:

It’s 5.2%, from the link.

And if you were there from Blair/Brown, you are probably well ahead.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

I put up a link previously to a study by the Nuffield Trust. 

Their analysis showed real terms wage drops starting in 2010. We know why that happened- austerity- an inevitable consequence of the financial crash, which affected everybody, public and private.

Whether it went of too long is always open to debate.

Interestingly, that real term wage discrepancy started to close around 2019.

Obviously, the war and inflation will mean it drops off again, though as inflation comes down again, that gap will start to close again.

It's here.

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/chart-of-the-week-pay-has-fallen-in-real-terms-for-most-nhs-staff-groups-since-2010#:~:text=Nuffield Trust analysis of NHS,' pay fell by 8%

Some of the claims of 25% do seem over played, but the drop is there nevertheless. 

Obviously have been a rise or two greater than inflation recently, but not back to previous level.

My missus also works in the public sector, and her drop is greater, as her increases have been less. 

Clearly it isn't a race to the bottom, but in comparison to other areas it could have been worse.

A huge increase in overall funding of the nhs too so there is a need for much better use of finances. The diversity officers' salaries last year would have paid for 1200 nurses.

 

[Casino]

We cant recruit enough nurses

Id say its pretty fucking obvious we wont until they get paid more

I dont say they deserve more, ive no idea, therell be great nurses and therell be shit nurses, just like any other job

But we have 10s of 1000s of posts we cant fill

Youre not right on this one @globaldiverbut even if you were, itd be a seriously hollow victory as the service collapses

How a tory like you wont accept the basic issue of the market dictating the rate for the job, God only knows

[Casino]

1 minute ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

I put up a link previously to a study by the Nuffield Trust. 

Their analysis showed real terms wage drops starting in 2010. We know why that happened- austerity- an inevitable consequence of the financial crash, which affected everybody, public and private.

Whether it went of too long is always open to debate.

Interestingly, that real term wage discrepancy started to close around 2019.

Obviously, the war and inflation will mean it drops off again, though as inflation comes down again, that gap will start to close again.

It's here.

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/chart-of-the-week-pay-has-fallen-in-real-terms-for-most-nhs-staff-groups-since-2010#:~:text=Nuffield Trust analysis of NHS,' pay fell by 8%

Some of the claims of 25% do seem over played, but the drop is there nevertheless. 

Obviously have been a rise or two greater than inflation recently, but not back to previous level.

My missus also works in the public sector, and her drop is greater, as her increases have been less. 

Clearly it isn't a race to the bottom, but in comparison to other areas it could have been worse.

A huge increase in overall funding of the nhs too so there is a need for much better use of finances. The diversity officers' salaries last year would have paid for 1200 nurses.

 

How much would the fees paid to agency nurses (some on 3x their NHS colleagues have funded)

Like ive said, at heart, im a tory and with that, I see things have a value

Nurses see themselves as worth more than theyre getting paid

Until we up the pay, it seems more will leave, to be paid over the odds as a 'temp'

The GP service faces the same challenges.

How can it be that its preferable to be a locum, rather than being a partner in a practice

[RoadRunnerFan]

@kent_white the three year deal came in in 18/19 which explains the above inflation element for these years. I can't be arsed reading the whole thing but It doesn't say what 'nurse pay' is on the graph; so I'll assume it means top of Band 5 since this is where the biggest numbers are. Which incidentally hides the impact of removing increment points when the 3 year deal came in.