Justice

[Guest]

the special constable said simple methods such as oxygen and basic first aid would have saved him. he had no broken ribs etc,but basic first aid wasn't readily on hand,hence the poor boy passed away in her arms.she wasn't able to help,whereas a medical officer who assessed it later said he could have survived had he been given adequate medical attention at the scene. these stories are heartbreaking,and coming out years later will undoubtedly had more heartbreak and grief to the victims' relatives and friends.

the same article mentioned how the police had just one personal radio between god knows how many and had to borrow a traffic warden's radio set to receive and relay instructions. the officer was appalled by the lack of available equipment and was also forced to change his statement which was shown in the daily mirror.

the mirror also says the bereaved families received compensation payouts of approx £3,600 whereas a south yorkshire policeman received over £311,000 for distress caused by witnessing the tragedy and aftermath etc

 

So, that the statement was changed made no difference to whether he survived?

[miamiwhite]

obviously not,but not nice for families to read that stuff many years later. shows why the scousers were adamant re the cover up and the bit about the 3-15 cut-off. i was never really sympathetic re that particular bit of the tragedy before but it's opened my eyes a bit to it and why they pursued it for so long

[MickyD]

Hang on a mo. Coppers at that time needed a first aid certificate to get off training, same as firemen. That she was sat cradling this kid rather than 'first-aiding' him is, in itself, rather strange.

[miamiwhite]

also and even stranger,in the same article,the former special constable,says she was later accused by a senior officer of lying and daydreaming about even being at hillsborough. some serious shit will hit the fan for senior figures over the pennines

[Miller]

Hang on a mo. Coppers at that time needed a first aid certificate to get off training, same as firemen. That she was sat cradling this kid rather than 'first-aiding' him is, in itself, rather strange.

What are you implying? Hope to god you never have a child dying in your arms. Yet people on here will still claim there is no anti scouse biased. Supposed she was pissed too.

[Miller]

 

 

So, that the statement was changed made no difference to whether he survived?

Yet it explains the injustice they suffered something which people on here fail to understand and will still look to find blame.

[fatolive]

What are you implying? Hope to god you never have a child dying in your arms. Yet people on here will still claim there is no anti scouse biased. Supposed she was pissed too.

not that he need me to answer for him, I dont even know MickyD, but I bet a pound to a piece of shit he has seen more upsetting things in a nights shift that you have in your entire life, maybe even the one described. If you read all the posts, he was implying that he found it strange the article stated the constable said basic first aid would've saved the kid, when, by nature of her being in the job she was in, she was in a position to give that basic first aid rather than sitting holding him.

[Miller]

 

not that he need me to answer for him, I dont even know MickyD, but I bet a pound to a piece of shit he has seen more upsetting things in a nights shift that you have in your entire life, maybe even the one described. If you read all the posts, he was implying that he found it strange the article stated the constable said basic first aid would've saved the kid, when, by nature of her being in the job she was in, she was in a position to give that basic first aid rather than sitting holding him.

Don't even fuckng go there pal. You have no idea what I have seen or not seen in my life. I was right to ask what he was implying, after what I have been reading.

[Mona]

Read all your posts, agree it was time the truth was revealed And credit to the people who fought for the truth , but my one hope for the future of football and common sense is, that this was about finding the truth, preventing it happening again, protecting every person inside a stadium, whether football, music or any other mass gathering, and not about suing someone for the money aspect

 

 

[no balls]

Don't even fuckng go there pal. You have no idea what I have seen or not seen in my life. I was right to ask what he was implying, after what I have been reading.

 

As the other poster said, you have no idea what Michael has seen either.

 

I'm still sensing anger though, pal.

 

Have a minute.

[barryk32]

Has yon mon's number not come up yet?

Edited September 14, 2012 by barryk32

[fatolive]

Don't even fuckng go there pal. You have no idea what I have seen or not seen in my life. I was right to ask what he was implying, after what I have been reading.

true I don't, it's also true I don't care, the only reason you would ask what he was implying was if you couldn't read or you were looking for an argument where there was none.

From the article (paraphrased) " basic first aid would/could have saved him"

posters query " the person claiming this would/should have had first aid"

 

nothing sinister, nothing anti scouse, just a genuine question, yet you seemed to take issue with it

[BOWTUN BAKED]

Yet it explains the injustice they suffered something which people on here fail to understand and will still look to find blame.

 

You just don't get it do you?

 

TRUTH: the conformity with fact or reality

 

We know the FA are to blame for choosing an unsafe stadium

We know the Sheffield council & SWFC are to blame for not having a safety certificate

We know the Police fucked up in their decision making

We know the emergency services were inadequate that day

We know the 96 innocent people died in a terrible tragedy

 

We also know that if a large number of ticketless fans try to jib their way in to an already sold out crammed stadium, that they too will/have contributed towards this tragedy. That's what you've clearly not understood on this thread because you're too busy blaming everyone else

 

THAT IS THE TRUTH: that is fact, the reality is 'if' they weren't doing this...... well, who knows what might have been.

[athywhite]

hold your hand up if you have never jumped a turnstile or gone through an open gate into a stadium, diference is it didnt result in a disaster.

[leigh white]

Jumped many a turnstile and jibbed and bribed folk on gates to get into a match, its wrong, but i never put any lives in danger.

[athywhite]

Jumped many a turnstile and jibbed and bribed folk on gates to get into a match, its wrong, but i never put any lives in danger.

yeah but do you believe that they actually thought they were putting lifes in danger when they did it, i went to wrexham one year to watch us play, we needed to win to make the play offs we thought, but it turned out we went up automatically, any way while i was waiting to pay in, the gates opened and i rushed in along with many others, it was chocka in there that day but it never crossed my mind that i was putting lives in danger by doing it.

[DazBob]

hold your hand up if you have never jumped a turnstile or gone through an open gate into a stadium, diference is it didnt result in a disaster.

 

I haven't.

 

... but I've never had to.

 

If the chance had presented itself though I'm sure I would've done if I had to. I also know that by doing that and I'd later learned that good, honest folk, and especially children, had died as a result of a crush, I'd go to the grave with a dark cloud of guilt hovering over me.

 

Even if I knew the authorities had made terrible, terrible mistakes I'd still feel that I'd contributed.

 

The question is Athy if, by doing what you did, BWFC fans lost their lives, would you feel guilt? I reckon you would.

Edited September 14, 2012 by DazBobParr

[BOWTUN BAKED]

yeah but do you believe that they actually thought they were putting lifes in danger when they did it, i went to wrexham one year to watch us play, we needed to win to make the play offs we thought, but it turned out we went up automatically, any way while i was waiting to pay in, the gates opened and i rushed in along with many others, it was chocka in there that day but it never crossed my mind that i was putting lives in danger by doing it.

 

I too, on countless occasions, got in for nowt. Many did back in the day, if the opportunity arose. These weren't all ticket games though.

 

Do I think that they thought they were putting peoples lives at risk? Of course not.

 

Do I think that they think they had no part or influence on the tragedy occuring? Yes, whole heartedly.

 

The ticketless fans were part of the problem, there's no escaping that fact, it's not the only reason, but to try to deny all responsibility in the part played by ticketless fans is wrong.

 

They want the truth, but they want the truth on their own terms, that to me is not the whole truth.

[Miller]

 

 

You just don't get it do you?

 

TRUTH: the conformity with fact or reality

 

We know the FA are to blame for choosing an unsafe stadium

We know the Sheffield council & SWFC are to blame for not having a safety certificate

We know the Police fucked up in their decision making

We know the emergency services were inadequate that day

We know the 96 innocent people died in a terrible tragedy

 

We also know that if a large number of ticketless fans try to jib their way in to an already sold out crammed stadium, that they too will/have contributed towards this tragedy. That's what you've clearly not understood on this thread because you're too busy blaming everyone else

 

THAT IS THE TRUTH: that is fact, the reality is 'if' they weren't doing this...... well, who knows what might have been.

 

Great post mate and I DO understand what you are trying to say however as you quite rightly stated in your last paragraph IF. also to be fair I probably accept there could have been ticketless fans there but I don't accept this contributed to Hillsbrough. If I take your debate and say yeah I think your right I still think the contribution would have only been 0.00001%.

[Guest]

Yet it explains the injustice they suffered something which people on here fail to understand and will still look to find blame.

 

 

You're far too easy to wind up

[desperado]

For me it's about how you form your opinions of what happened on that horrific day. Whether you are knowingly or unknowingly influenced by factors related to the media at the time, the current media reaction, your sympathy to the many families who have suffered since that day, an allegiance to the folk of Merseyside, your in built hatred and prejudices you have for Liverpool and their fans, what you saw with your own eyes if you were there on that day, you may even form your opinions based solely on what you read on this thread.

 

I myself may even be influenced by a number of the factors above. I have however tried to take in some of the key elements from the recent report and the dominant issues of what caused that tragedy that day were around policy on crowd safety, massive operational failings, archaic and barbaric customs and practices and shocking medical evidence. The one telling quote about the ticketless and drunk fans is this:

 

"Yet, from the mass of documents, television and CCTV coverage disclosed to the panel there is no evidence to support these allegations other than a few isolated examples of aggressive or verbally abusive behaviour clearly reflecting frustration and desperation."

 

What I witnessed on my TV screen that Saturday afternoon and the pictures and stories that I have heard since will live with me forever. It's a disaster on the largest scale possible which could have been avoided if the former points from the report would have been addressed. I for one, hopefully like a lot of the football family, hope that these families can find some solace or closure from these findings and will always happily show my respect in any way for the tragedy that happened that day

[Miller]

 

 

 

You're far too easy to wind up

 

I would not have thought people would try to wind other people up on a forum debating such a immotive issue such as Hillsbrough.

[hughmungus]

The point being made is that the disaster occured AFTER hundreds of ticketless fans started to force their way into the full part of the ground. All this blame and shame stuff about Police etc is AFTER the thing had reached the point of no return.

 

It starting to make my blood boil the more I read when it is clear that not a single one of the turnstile jumpers or those that climbed walls and went in through open gates have ever put their hand up and said that they may have contributed.

 

Its always easy to shift blame with any disater onto those who we all knew where there such as the Police and Ambulance people because they would have been the only ones whose names appeared on written work rosters. Also the statements where changed by solicitors which says it all about that proffession.

[athywhite]

 

 

I haven't.

 

... but I've never had to.

 

If the chance had presented itself though I'm sure I would've done if I had to. I also know that by doing that and I'd later learned that good, honest folk, and especially children, had died as a result of a crush, I'd go to the grave with a dark cloud of guilt hovering over me.

 

Even if I knew the authorities had made terrible, terrible mistakes I'd still feel that I'd contributed.

 

The question is Athy if, by doing what you did, BWFC fans lost their lives, would you feel guilt? I reckon you would.

Yes of course i would but you dont know that some or all are feeling this way do you. There may be some that have never been to a game since, there may be some that are tormented by it and some who dont give a flying fcuk, unfortunatly the trial was all about the ones that died , as bowton said i do feel that the gatecrashers are partly to blame but they have their own concience to deal with if they have one.

[Guest]

I would not have thought people would try to wind other people up on a forum debating such a immotive issue such as Hillsbrough.

 

 

Immotive? Is that for your dierys? (note to self; check spelling)

 

Anyway

 

 

We'll see what "Justice" looks like as the future unfolds.

 

We'll see if the real scousers "Justice" looks more like revenge and ever-increasing demands for compensation, or will justice mean that they graciously accept the new truth and forgive, in decent christian fasion.