Politics

[Not in Crawley]

Why nowhere? On this site you have Spider who voted leave and has voted conservative, SW who has always voted Tory; probably two very one nationists, centre ground pragmatists. 

The increasing hyperbole from some against those who are level headed politically speaking, is just representative of the wider problem that unless you agree 100% with the dogmatic populist arguments you are somehow an enemy of these imagined people.

As I have repeatedly said, the arrogance of a certain self-regarding middle class of metropolitan based liberals in misunderstanding the issues faced by many is understandable, but it’s the misdirected ire and the toxic mixing of this in a melting pot of late 50s nationalism, anger directed at the wrong targets (EU, immigration, the poorest of our society) that creates these endless circular, and increasingly bad-blooded, debates.

It does nothing to move us forward as a country, and as a patriot who loves the very bones of this nation, it’s hard to watch it tear itself apart over the wrong issues. 

[bwfcfan5]

14 hours ago, Not in Crawley said:

You are right it is a philosophy, so why do you insist on inverting it and using its lowest common denominator to push your ideological stance against centrists? 
 

You talk about respect, and offer none, you talk about compromise but only on your terms, you discuss social liberalism and display none of its tenets. This might be why some people find your stance increasingly dogmatic. There are very few extremists on this site, the self awareness you request from others might also be something you wish to display so that you can move on from an intrenchment you see ill equipped to navigate your way out from. 
 

 

That probably deserves an award for post of the year. It's January - but nothing will beat how on point and well worded and spot on that post is. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

12 hours ago, jayjayoghani said:

After my experience down here, believe me food in the UK is very cheap

It is Indeed. And that was his point. The cap, with the best of intentions achieved that, but also brought massive issues.

Not sure about your country, but we waste absolutely ridiculous amounts of food over here- a slight price increase might make people be a bit more careful and manage things differently.

The point being made was with regards to best land management, environmental impact and bringing about improvements in the countryside for wildlife, workers etc.

If it means a more realistic price for certain goods then fine.

[bwfcfan5]

15 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

It is Indeed. And that was his point. The cap, with the best of intentions achieved that, but also brought massive issues.

Not sure about your country, but we waste absolutely ridiculous amounts of food over here- a slight price increase might make people be a bit more careful and manage things differently.

The point being made was with regards to best land management, environmental impact and bringing about improvements in the countryside for wildlife, workers etc.

If it means a more realistic price for certain goods then fine.

Tricky isn't it. We can sit here and be very happy with locally sourced, sustainable food and happily pay more. But some families in Bolton struggle to feed their kids as it is. 

So price increases could be quite harmful. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

8 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Tricky isn't it. We can sit here and be very happy with locally sourced, sustainable food and happily pay more. But some families in Bolton struggle to feed their kids as it is. 

So price increases could be quite harmful. 

Meanwhile other foods will become cheaper, as we import foods potentially without tariffs.

Whatever the case, if you want your environmental improvements as you profess to, then be prepared to pay the going rate.

There will always be folk who struggle for funds, and for those in genuine need, we have a benefits system which needs to be fit for purpose.

At the same time, it's not there to make life easier for the numbers that are too idle to use their non working time to good effect and shop around and produce decent meals from fresh ingredients.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Tonge moor green jacket

[bwfcfan5]

41 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Meanwhile other foods will become cheaper, as we import foods potentially without tariffs.

Whatever the case, if you want your environmental improvements as you profess to, then be prepared to pay the going rate.

There will always be folk who struggle for funds, and for those in genuine need, we have a benefits system which needs to be fit for purpose.

At the same time, it's not there to make life easier for the numbers that are too idle to use their non working time to good effect and shop around and produce decent meals from fresh ingredients.

There is a reality of kids going into schools hungry and parents in tears that they can't afford to properly feed them. Whatever the reasons (and there is a genuine mix) its heartbreaking.  

I get the absolute need to source local food and protect the environment but perhaps we also need to look at the costs of doing that and ensure they come down to make sure food is affordable. The biggest problems we have is volumes and supermarkets working on huge volumes to make things so incredibly cheap. Its tough against that backdrop to encourage many people to eat "local produce". But it is important to do so.

 

[Escobarp]

12 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

There is a reality of kids going into schools hungry and parents in tears that they can't afford to properly feed them. Whatever the reasons (and there is a genuine mix) its heartbreaking.  

I get the absolute need to source local food and protect the environment but perhaps we also need to look at the costs of doing that and ensure they come down to make sure food is affordable. The biggest problems we have is volumes and supermarkets working on huge volumes to make things so incredibly cheap. Its tough against that backdrop to encourage many people to eat "local produce". But it is important to do so.

 

In reality it isn’t food costs thats the issue in isolation though is it and we all know that. It’s a proper level of food that is often done without rather than other things in these household  It’s a much wider issue. But there is a problem 

[bwfcfan5]

42 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

In reality it isn’t food costs thats the issue in isolation though is it and we all know that. It’s a proper level of food that is often done without rather than other things in these household  It’s a much wider issue. But there is a problem 

Aye - like I said its very mixed. But one shouldn't assume its always down to poor choice. Quite often in my experience it isn't. 

Like you say though food prices aren't the only thing - its heating, clothing, getting them to and from school and countless other things. I know one family who bought their 4 year old a Christmas present and then couldn't afford to eat properly for weeks after - it sounds a poor choice - easy on the outside to say that - but they wanted him to have that bit of magic like his friends at school did. Really tough situations to be in. 

[Zico]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-tax-tech-trump-mnuchin-brexit-trade-deal-macron-a9294661.html

I say fuck em BJ - go after the tech companies, and get that diplomats wife back over here whilst you're at it

ignore any threats from the US, we stand on our two feet now, irrespective of special relationships

I really hope we don't get bullied by the US over this

[Escobarp]

44 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Aye - like I said its very mixed. But one shouldn't assume its always down to poor choice. Quite often in my experience it isn't. 

Like you say though food prices aren't the only thing - its heating, clothing, getting them to and from school and countless other things. I know one family who bought their 4 year old a Christmas present and then couldn't afford to eat properly for weeks after - it sounds a poor choice - easy on the outside to say that - but they wanted him to have that bit of magic like his friends at school did. Really tough situations to be in. 

I have a close friend in the exact situation. I paid for the kids to have Xmas this year as otherwise it would have been food and basic essentials that got put to the side. So I see how it affects people very closely and it’s a huge issue 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Escobarp

[Salford Trotter]

14 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

I have a close friend in the exact situation. I paid for the kids to have Xmas this year as otherwise it would have been food and basic essentials that got put to the side. So I see how it affects people very closely and it’s a huge issue 

nice gesture Stu👍

[Escobarp]

25 minutes ago, Salford Trotter said:

nice gesture Stu👍

Thanks mate. I like to think (maybe misguidedly) that most folk would do the same for a close friend if they were struggling and you had the ability to resolve it without it adversely Affecting  you 

we were all kids once 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

2 hours ago, ZicoKelly said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-tax-tech-trump-mnuchin-brexit-trade-deal-macron-a9294661.html

I say fuck em BJ - go after the tech companies, and get that diplomats wife back over here whilst you're at it

ignore any threats from the US, we stand on our two feet now, irrespective of special relationships

I really hope we don't get bullied by the US over this

I agree entirely. It's how Trump rumbles, we know that.

These companies should be paying what they owe, simple. Frankly, if they're operating here, then that part of the business should pay up and it's fuck all to do with the nation of the parent company.

We're actually in a strong position, both the EU and the US will/would have larger exports to us, than imports from us, and other nations will also want a piece of the action.

Twatter and faceache cause a lot of problems albeit indirectly, contribute to help public services support folk exposed to these problems, or fuck off.

[bwfcfan5]

2 hours ago, Escobarp said:

I have a close friend in the exact situation. I paid for the kids to have Xmas this year as otherwise it would have been food and basic essentials that got put to the side. So I see how it affects people very closely and it’s a huge issue 

That's amazing. I honestly find it really upsetting. When you look at it in a detached way from the bigger picture its sort of easy to be "well they have enough to feed them and that's what matters" or criticise their choices or the lifestyles. But when you know some affected and understand the full stories and whatever and see what they go through its pretty horrific. There but for the grace of god and all that.

 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

As I said earlier, there will always be a small number that genuinely do need help. And that's what a good benefit system is for. Plenty wrong with administering the current set up which isn't helping.

That isn't necessarily the case with plenty that just can't be arsed managing their money better.

[MickyD]

6 hours ago, bwfcfan5 said:

That probably deserves an award for post of the year. It's January - but nothing will beat how on point and well worded and spot on that post is. 

Google Translate - I'd love to nosh Not in Crawley once I've given him a reach around.

[paulhanley]

7 hours ago, Not in Crawley said:

Why nowhere? On this site you have Spider who voted leave and has voted conservative, SW who has always voted Tory; probably two very one nationists, centre ground pragmatists. 

The increasing hyperbole from some against those who are level headed politically speaking, is just representative of the wider problem that unless you agree 100% with the dogmatic populist arguments you are somehow an enemy of these imagined people.

As I have repeatedly said, the arrogance of a certain self-regarding middle class of metropolitan based liberals in misunderstanding the issues faced by many is understandable, but it’s the misdirected ire and the toxic mixing of this in a melting pot of late 50s nationalism, anger directed at the wrong targets (EU, immigration, the poorest of our society) that creates these endless circular, and increasingly bad-blooded, debates.

It does nothing to move us forward as a country, and as a patriot who loves the very bones of this nation, it’s hard to watch it tear itself apart over the wrong issues. 

I'm not sure what your definition of "centrist" is. On some measures Margaret Thatcher could be defined as centrist. Boris Johnson is very definitely not a full-on social conservative. Given the amount of money pledged to be plunged in to public services at a time when we have a pile of national debt, I am not even sure you could call him a full-on economic conservative. These are multi-dimensional judgements.

I was a Labour voter until 2010. I have followed the classic path of someone getting older in years. You get disillusioned with Labour and socialism as a concept when you discover the latter delivers the opposite of what it claims and the former has been in power six times and left a toxic economic mess on every occasion. I edged cautiously in to conservatism with such stark realisations in my mind.

You've got to get underneath why it is that metropolitan liberals have become so despised. It's not just a "misunderstanding of issues", it's the hubris of politically correct lecturing and an assumption that they have annexed the moral high ground and all known wisdom. They consider themselves the arbiters of whether every word in the English language is "appropriate" or not. These aren't left/right issues. They're not centrist issues. That's just a nasty, superior attitude. And if you think I'm aggressive on here it's simply a response to that attitude.

Back in 2010 and to a degree much later I'd never have envisaged myself thinking what I think now. I am university educated, middle class in terms of income and brought up in what had until recently generally been a Labour supporting family. These are all things that could have led me down the path of the politically correct, left leaning Guardian reader. But its action/reaction - you have to examine the extent of the arrogance of people who describe themselves as "progressive" only to describe anybody who disagrees with them as extreme - occasionally going so far as to no-platform them. It's very 21st century. More humility is required. It has got to stop.

Do not tell me what I can and cannot say or what I can or cannot think (addressed widely, not to you personally). We do not have a liberal monoculture. We do have free speech. 

In your terminology: "Centrist" does not automatically mean "good". Non-centrist does not automatically mean "extremist".

In summary ... who made my current outlook on the world? Arrogant liberals. They reap what they sew. Check out how Leigh and Workington voted on December 12 if you want proof beyond my view of life. 

This is not ugly populism. It's a response to ugly liberalism.

[miamiwhite]

1 hour ago, paulhanley said:

I'm not sure what your definition of "centrist" is. On some measures Margaret Thatcher could be defined as centrist. Boris Johnson is very definitely not a full-on social conservative. Given the amount of money pledged to be plunged in to public services at a time when we have a pile of national debt, I am not even sure you could call him a full-on economic conservative. These are multi-dimensional judgements.

I was a Labour voter until 2010. I have followed the classic path of someone getting older in years. You get disillusioned with Labour and socialism as a concept when you discover the latter delivers the opposite of what it claims and the former has been in power six times and left a toxic economic mess on every occasion. I edged cautiously in to conservatism with such stark realisations in my mind.

You've got to get underneath why it is that metropolitan liberals have become so despised. It's not just a "misunderstanding of issues", it's the hubris of politically correct lecturing and an assumption that they have annexed the moral high ground and all known wisdom. They consider themselves the arbiters of whether every word in the English language is "appropriate" or not. These aren't left/right issues. They're not centrist issues. That's just a nasty, superior attitude. And if you think I'm aggressive on here it's simply a response to that attitude.

Back in 2010 and to a degree much later I'd never have envisaged myself thinking what I think now. I am university educated, middle class in terms of income and brought up in what had until recently generally been a Labour supporting family. These are all things that could have led me down the path of the politically correct, left leaning Guardian reader. But its action/reaction - you have to examine the extent of the arrogance of people who describe themselves as "progressive" only to describe anybody who disagrees with them as extreme - occasionally going so far as to no-platform them. It's very 21st century. More humility is required. It has got to stop.

Do not tell me what I can and cannot say or what I can or cannot think (addressed widely, not to you personally). We do not have a liberal monoculture. We do have free speech. 

In your terminology: "Centrist" does not automatically mean "good". Non-centrist does not automatically mean "extremist".

In summary ... who made my current outlook on the world? Arrogant liberals. They reap what they sew. Check out how Leigh and Workington voted on December 12 if you want proof beyond my view of life. 

This is not ugly populism. It's a response to ugly liberalism.

Final two sentences.....nail on the head Paul 👍🇬🇧

[paulhanley]

4 minutes ago, miamiwhite said:

Final two sentences.....nail on the head Paul 👍🇬🇧

Cheers. Glad you managed to wade through to the last two sentences. 🙂  Got a bit too wordy again!

[kent_white]

It's trendy to be right wing and edgy nowadays 

[Escobarp]

Just now, kent_white said:

It's trendy to be right wing and edgy nowadays 

And judging by some of the cunts on here it’s fucking boring being left wing 😘

[Tonge moor green jacket]

4 minutes ago, kent_white said:

It's trendy to be right wing and edgy nowadays 

I reckon politics has cycles a bit like the economy.

[Not in Crawley]

10 minutes ago, kent_white said:

It's trendy to be right wing and edgy nowadays 

That made me giggle.

[Escobarp]

11 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

And judging by some of the cunts on here it’s fucking boring being left wing 😘

 

Just now, Not in Crawley said:

That made me giggle.

Nuff said 

[Not in Crawley]

1 hour ago, paulhanley said:

I'm not sure what your definition of "centrist" is. On some measures Margaret Thatcher could be defined as centrist. Boris Johnson is very definitely not a full-on social conservative. Given the amount of money pledged to be plunged in to public services at a time when we have a pile of national debt, I am not even sure you could call him a full-on economic conservative. These are multi-dimensional judgements.

I was a Labour voter until 2010. I have followed the classic path of someone getting older in years. You get disillusioned with Labour and socialism as a concept when you discover the latter delivers the opposite of what it claims and the former has been in power six times and left a toxic economic mess on every occasion. I edged cautiously in to conservatism with such stark realisations in my mind.

You've got to get underneath why it is that metropolitan liberals have become so despised. It's not just a "misunderstanding of issues", it's the hubris of politically correct lecturing and an assumption that they have annexed the moral high ground and all known wisdom. They consider themselves the arbiters of whether every word in the English language is "appropriate" or not. These aren't left/right issues. They're not centrist issues. That's just a nasty, superior attitude. And if you think I'm aggressive on here it's simply a response to that attitude.

Back in 2010 and to a degree much later I'd never have envisaged myself thinking what I think now. I am university educated, middle class in terms of income and brought up in what had until recently generally been a Labour supporting family. These are all things that could have led me down the path of the politically correct, left leaning Guardian reader. But its action/reaction - you have to examine the extent of the arrogance of people who describe themselves as "progressive" only to describe anybody who disagrees with them as extreme - occasionally going so far as to no-platform them. It's very 21st century. More humility is required. It has got to stop.

Do not tell me what I can and cannot say or what I can or cannot think (addressed widely, not to you personally). We do not have a liberal monoculture. We do have free speech. 

In your terminology: "Centrist" does not automatically mean "good". Non-centrist does not automatically mean "extremist".

In summary ... who made my current outlook on the world? Arrogant liberals. They reap what they sew. Check out how Leigh and Workington voted on December 12 if you want proof beyond my view of life. 

This is not ugly populism. It's a response to ugly liberalism.

I haven’t told you want to think, I actually agreed with the point you are lecturing me on. Liberal monoculture? As I have written in the last two posts, there is real issues with it, and it’s arrogance.

I was just saying that you argue from a point of view and expect everyone to simply agree without seeing the irony in calling others arrogant. 

Ugly Patriotism can lead to destructive paths, ugly liberalism can lead to neoliberal one nationism. It’s a cute sign off, but contains nothing of real substance.