Politics

[Tonge moor green jacket]

9 hours ago, tomski said:

Whether you want to be part of the ‘EU’ or not. I think it’s dangerous to cheer any collapse. History tells us that lesson.

Surely that depends upon the quality of governance in the given country?

Not sure anyone is "cheering" the French and German situations as such, however if they don't represent the will and needs of the people then it will happen.

They may now have to have new elections, and we've just seen here and in the US what happens if the public lose faith in their politicians.

Plenty of folk cheered both.

[Cheese]

3 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Surely that depends upon the quality of governance in the given country?

Not sure anyone is "cheering" the French and German situations as such, however if they don't represent the will and needs of the people then it will happen.

They may now have to have new elections, and we've just seen here and in the US what happens if the public lose faith in their politicians.

Plenty of folk cheered both.

What happened here?

[royal white]

3 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

But they aren’t are they? Unemployment rates have been historically low. It’s a myth that there is a big workforce we can co-opt here. It doesn’t exist. 

So Keir Starmer was lying then when he mentioned in the election run up that he wanted to get people back into work.

Who’d of thunk it 

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, royal white said:

So Keir Starmer was lying then when he mentioned in the election run up that he wanted to get people back into work.

Who’d of thunk it 

He wants to get people off sickness benefits because our welfare bill is becoming crippling. But that’s not going to fix the fundamentals whereby we are reliant on immigration to fuel our workforce to grow the economy. 
 

People being sick because the NHS has been wrecked is clearly a bad thing. But it’s not a magic bullet fix. We were reliant on immigration before Covid. 

[royal white]

2 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

He wants to get people off sickness benefits because our welfare bill is becoming crippling. But that’s not going to fix the fundamentals whereby we are reliant on immigration to fuel our workforce to grow the economy. 
 

People being sick because the NHS has been wrecked is clearly a bad thing. But it’s not a magic bullet fix. We were reliant on immigration before Covid. 

People are milking the benefit system, it’s clear to see. This conversation has been had many times on here. If Labour can get many of these back working then it will make us less reliant on foreign workers. 

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

42 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Virtually all our growth is linked to immigration in the last two decades. So the reality is - unless we stop the boomer generation retiring and work them till they die and find other ways to grow the workforce - growth will be almost exclusively driven by numbers we add in. 

I'm not arguing we stop immigration

I'm arguing this: if we are to rely on growth from immigration, we have to ensure as high a percentage of our immigrants are of working age and in work as possible

[Cheese]

10 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

I'm not arguing we stop immigration

I'm arguing this: if we are to rely on growth from immigration, we have to ensure as high a percentage of our immigrants are of working age and in work as possible

That only happens if you process them and make those determinations. Something the last Government basically stopped doing, because having hotels full of migrants in limbo played well with their pretend anti-immigrant stance. "Look at all these migrants that we can't do anything about! Vote for us, and we'll do something about it! (Even though we have gone out of our way to make the problem worse for the last few years)"

Edited December 4, 2024 by Cheese

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

I'm not arguing we stop immigration

I'm arguing this: if we are to rely on growth from immigration, we have to ensure as high a percentage of our immigrants are of working age and in work as possible

Yep completely agree. It was why leaving the EU was one of the most nonsensical things we did. A ready workforce.

Let’s be blunt - the barriers to a Pole coming here and becoming a labourer are a lot less than importing someone from Africa to do it. And of course visa rules make it harder and more expensive for businesses wherever someone comes from now compared to freedom of movement.

 

 

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, royal white said:

People are milking the benefit system, it’s clear to see. This conversation has been had many times on here. If Labour can get many of these back working then it will make us less reliant on foreign workers. 

I mean again that isn’t what’s happening. And the rate at which the boomer generation is retiring is outpacing any sort of reduction of the sickness list. By a long way.

We are reliant on immigration for growth. That’s a fact. You have to decide whether you care about the economy or about people entering the country more. It’s one or the other. 

 

 

[royal white]

Just now, bwfcfan5 said:

I mean again that isn’t what’s happening. And the rate at which the boomer generation is retiring is outpacing any sort of reduction of the sickness list. By a long way.

We are reliant on immigration for growth. That’s a fact. You have to decide whether you care about the economy or about people entering the country more. It’s one or the other. 

 

 

You don’t have to be as reliant is what I’m saying. Labour are throwing their famous 3 word slogans about again, let’s see if they work. Oh, and there’s nothing really stopping foreign workers coming over doing the work. But you know that. 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, royal white said:

You don’t have to be as reliant is what I’m saying. Labour are throwing their famous 3 word slogans about again, let’s see if they work. Oh, and there’s nothing really stopping foreign workers coming over doing the work. But you know that. 

Look at the birth rates. We are going to become more and more and more reliant. Look at birth rates in primary schools years now. 
 

And there is a lot stopping them. As you well know.

 

 

[royal white]

1 minute ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Look at the birth rates. We are going to become more and more and more reliant. Look at birth rates in primary schools years now. 
 

And there is a lot stopping them. As you well know.

 

 

2 million Starmer wants to get “back to work” and “make Britain work” 

That will make us less reliant on foreign workers, it’s the most basic of maths, as you well know (I would hope) 

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

1 minute ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Yep completely agree. It was why leaving the EU was one of the most nonsensical things we did. A ready workforce.

Let’s be blunt - the barriers to a Pole coming here and becoming a labourer are a lot less than importing someone from Africa to do it. And of course visa rules make it harder and more expensive for businesses wherever someone comes from now compared to freedom of movement.

 

 

Without a doubt

But we could still implement policy on visas to make it easier if we so wished

We also urgently need to make it easier for young people to start families (housing, child benefit, nursery fees, etc.) to improve the replacement rate, and we should probably also reassess whether it's sustainable or even sensible to have so many of our young, working age population in university and therefore out of the workforce, consider increasing the retirement age, and so on

[Casino]

7 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

 consider increasing the retirement age, and so on

While i have little doubt retirement age will be increased, i fear for folk in manual work when we do

Be fine for wfh desk jockeys

Without contributing immigrants, we are fucked anyway

Not just us, btw

Lets not forget badenough has an issue with maternity leave, the gormless bastard

 

 

[bolty58]

11 hours ago, Casino said:

Theyll be the first to bleat when millions of pierres and jurgens rock up

GSTQ

No surrender

Still hurting eh.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, royal white said:

2 million Starmer wants to get “back to work” and “make Britain work” 

That will make us less reliant on foreign workers, it’s the most basic of maths, as you well know (I would hope) 

Getting people off sickness benefits is going to reduce the welfare bill but in terms of growth it’s a tiny drop in the ocean. It’s it’s irrelevant in terms of this discussion.

Our growth is reliant on workforce expansion year on year. It’s at a need of hundreds of thousands a year now - and that’s just to tread water. And that’s before we start hitting real dips in workforce populations to come in the next decade. So you have to decide.

There is no magic machine. We either have a lot of immigration and accept that’s going to be a feature of our country for the next two decades. Or we accept that our economy declines. Starmer not facing up to this fact or any major political party failing to and pretending they have a magic button doesn’t change that fact. Indeed it only makes it worse. 

[bolty58]

11 hours ago, tomski said:

Whether you want to be part of the ‘EU’ or not. I think it’s dangerous to cheer any collapse. History tells us that lesson.

I won't be holding back. I despise big government, bureaucracy, overbearing nannyism - whatever you want to call it. The EU is a (if not 'the') prime example of all of these with all of its attendant inequity and corruption.

I'll be cheering through the biggest loud hailer I can find.

[royal white]

1 minute ago, bwfcfan5 said:

Getting people off sickness benefits is going to reduce the welfare bill but in terms of growth it’s a tiny drop in the ocean. It’s it’s irrelevant in terms of this discussion.

Our growth is reliant on workforce expansion year on year. It’s at a need of hundreds of thousands a year now - and that’s just to tread water. And that’s before we start hitting real dips in workforce populations to come in the next decade. So you have to decide.

There is no magic machine. We either have a lot of immigration and accept that’s going to be a feature of our country for the next two decades. Or we accept that our economy declines. Starmer not facing up to this fact or any major political party failing to and pretending they have a magic button doesn’t change that fact. Indeed it only makes it worse. 

2 million. Not my figures cocker. 

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

Without a doubt

But we could still implement policy on visas to make it easier if we so wished

We also urgently need to make it easier for young people to start families (housing, child benefit, nursery fees, etc.) to improve the replacement rate, and we should probably also reassess whether it's sustainable or even sensible to have so many of our young, working age population in university and therefore out of the workforce, consider increasing the retirement age, and so on

Yep. Though given the skills gap it’s important we are properly training young people for the varied careers they will need to undertake. But broadly agree.

We also need to listen to Rory Stewart and try to understand why work is so unremittingly shit in this country. Conditions awful. Pay awful. Pressure huge. France have better conditions and work fewer hours yet have higher productivity. We can’t ignore the fact that many people 55 ish don’t want to work for these reasons. You can’t force them either in many cases. They don’t need to. Same for some younger people too. 

[bolty58]

3 hours ago, deeane Koontz said:

The fact that a good few people told me they voted leave because there was too many brown people will never not be piss funny looking at how things have turned out 🤐

You must know some absolutely cretinous morons then.

[Guest]

Just now, royal white said:

2 million. Not my figures cocker. 

2 million. Not a year. Two million. Now. That’s a drop in the ocean. And many of those won’t be doing the jobs we’re talking about either. For lots of reasons. Lots of those people will have disabilities. You aren’t getting them on building sites.

But regardless the facts don’t change. Either or. 

[royal white]

3 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

2 million. Not a year. Two million. Now. That’s a drop in the ocean. And many of those won’t be doing the jobs we’re talking about either. For lots of reasons. Lots of those people will have disabilities. You aren’t getting them on building sites.

But regardless the facts don’t change. Either or. 

Nor is building work seasonal. Let’s say instead of using those 2 million that Labour want to get back Woking and instead they’re brought from abroad, where do they live? (Remember the housing crisis we are in) where do they go with medical issues. (Remember the NHS crisis we are in). No more me is saying they want a full stop on foreign workers, but we need to get those who are able to work to start putting in a shift. “Get Britain working” 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, royal white said:

Nor is building work seasonal. Let’s say instead of using those 2 million that Labour want to get back Woking and instead they’re brought from abroad, where do they live? (Remember the housing crisis we are in) where do they go with medical issues. (Remember the NHS crisis we are in). No more me is saying they want a full stop on foreign workers, but we need to get those who are able to work to start putting in a shift. “Get Britain working” 

All the issues around infrastructure and houses are there. Nobody would say otherwise. It still doesn’t change the basic fact. We have to decide. You can’t have both.

We need to be importing people who can and will work I completely agree. But we previously had polish builders coming over for a year or two. Maybe living 6 or 8 in a house. Then going home when job was done. Not all of course but some. And instead now due to visas many roles can’t be recruited from abroad yet there aren’t enough people here to do them. And those that can be recruited from abroad are more difficult and generally have to be out of EU - because a Pole can go to Germany freely and work and take their family whereas here it’s a ballache. So instead we have to import someone from elsewhere. Who is likely not going back ever if they can avoid it. And maybe want their family over too.

That’s why we fucked it. And right now I’m not sure there is a solution. Everyone is peddling cake and eat it stuff. Short term stuff. What happens when the real low birth rate years hit? 

 

 

[royal white]

3 minutes ago, bwfcfan5 said:

All the issues around infrastructure and houses are there. Nobody would say otherwise. It still doesn’t change the basic fact. We have to decide. You can’t have both.

We need to be importing people who can and will work I completely agree. But we previously had polish builders coming over for a year or two. Maybe living 6 or 8 in a house. Then going home when job was done. Not all of course but some. And instead now due to visas many roles can’t be recruited from abroad yet there aren’t enough people here to do them. And those that can be recruited from abroad are more difficult and generally have to be out of EU - because a Pole can go to Germany freely and work and take their family whereas here it’s a ballache. So instead we have to import someone from elsewhere. Who is likely not going back ever if they can avoid it. And maybe want their family over too.

That’s why we fucked it. And right now I’m not sure there is a solution. Everyone is peddling cake and eat it stuff. Short term stuff. What happens when the real low birth rate years hit? 

 

 

I’m sure it was @gonzo who posted a link on here not long ago citing the real reason many poles are leaving not just the U.K. but many country’s around the world to go back home. Blaming Brexit is a weak argument. 

[PatrickBateman]

22 minutes ago, bolty58 said:

You must know some absolutely cretinous morons then.

He's making it up.

'Brown people' ffs