Some judicial sense at last!

[Not in Crawley]

It's the correct decision re the law itself on the Equality Act, but this isn't a (and pardon the pun) binary right or wrong. The most disappointing thing is to see how some parts of the media are twisting it again into a culture war. The headline of the Mail today is headscratching and doesn't help anything. 

 

 

 

[Ani]

2 hours ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

In this particular case, it's not much of a stretch to claim the "wokes" have

We had 14 years of Tory government so the people in control were not ‘woke’ you can argue they were derelict in their duty.

It is easy to forget they were in control Badenoch and Jenrick seem to have forgotten. My point is that it does not matter who is in charge or what label you give them if any decision is made that ignores the interests and concerns of the majority you will end up with conflict. Especially when as in this case you ignore vulnerable groups so that predators can use the law to their advantage. No one’s intention was to compromise the safety of say women’s refuges but that is what happened 

[bolty58]

6 hours ago, Ani said:

The ‘wokes’ have not been in control. It is what happens when people lose sight of the ‘bigger picture’. 

Oh yes they have.

[bolty58]

1 hour ago, Ani said:

We had 14 years of Tory government so the people in control were not ‘woke’ you can argue they were derelict in their duty.

It is easy to forget they were in control Badenoch and Jenrick seem to have forgotten. My point is that it does not matter who is in charge or what label you give them if any decision is made that ignores the interests and concerns of the majority you will end up with conflict. Especially when as in this case you ignore vulnerable groups so that predators can use the law to their advantage. No one’s intention was to compromise the safety of say women’s refuges but that is what happened 

What twaddle.

The wokes have infiltrated all popular media, schools, universities and much more and been able to set the agenda.

The sort of myopia you are displaying here is how they managed to do it.

Democracies are for the majority. It should always be so.

[Ani]

12 minutes ago, bolty58 said:

What twaddle.

The wokes have infiltrated all popular media, schools, universities and much more and been able to set the agenda.

The sort of myopia you are displaying here is how they managed to do it.

Democracies are for the majority. It should always be so.

Must be tough trying to disagree as you seem to struggle to read what is written.

It is twaddle you say ‘democracy is for the majority’ . I say ‘any decision that ignores the interest and concerns of the majority will end in conflict’. You do realise that is the same thing ? 
 

Myopia you say ? 
 

The Tories were so weak when they were in charge , this happened on their watch. 

[bolty58]

1 hour ago, Ani said:

Must be tough trying to disagree as you seem to struggle to read what is written.

A few years ago I cudn't even spel injuneer and now I is one.

[London Wanderer]

5 hours ago, Not in Crawley said:

It's the correct decision re the law itself on the Equality Act, but this isn't a (and pardon the pun) binary right or wrong. The most disappointing thing is to see how some parts of the media are twisting it again into a culture war. The headline of the Mail today is headscratching and doesn't help anything. 

 

 

 

Aye, no surprise that the usuals are looking to stir things up already. Sadly there will be plenty hoping to keep the toxicity alive. 

I think the story of the Algerian boxer shows how complicated it can really be. Folk like to see it as simple issue, but it isn't always the way. 

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/11/06/algerian-boxer-imane-khelif-taking-legal-action-over-gender-reports_6731869_4.html#:~:text=The boxer has faced widespread abuse following her victory in Paris.&text=Imane Khelif%2C the Algerian boxer,said on Wednesday%2C November 6.

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

4 hours ago, Ani said:

We had 14 years of Tory government so the people in control were not ‘woke’ you can argue they were derelict in their duty.

This case relates to a decision of the Scottish government rather than Westminster

[Traf]

6 hours ago, Not in Crawley said:

The headline of the Mail today is headscratching and doesn't help anything. 

Rinse and repeat daily.

[Traf]

6 hours ago, gonzo said:

Next step is to protect the trans community so it isn't ostracised not just banish them into some grey area.

Correct.

As a parent of a trans child, I'm really interested in people's suggestions on this issue or should I just tell my child to man/woman up and stop being so woke?

PS for those hard of understanding, the latter isn't really an option.

[Ani]

31 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

This case relates to a decision of the Scottish government rather than Westminster

Fair point, but as stated my point really is bad decisions/legislation is the issue. Pretty sure 99.99% of people agree that women’s refuges should be women only and having to find a way to make that work is common sense rather than getting into a argument that  something is ‘woke’ or ‘non woke’ 

[Winchester White]

43 minutes ago, Traf said:

Correct.

As a parent of a trans child, I'm really interested in people's suggestions on this issue or should I just tell my child to man/woman up and stop being so woke?

PS for those hard of understanding, the latter isn't really an option.

It's fairly clear that common sense has been lost and that there is some folk on both sides of the debate who are intolerant of the opposing view.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

3 hours ago, bolty58 said:

What twaddle.

The wokes have infiltrated all popular media, schools, universities and much more and been able to set the agenda.

The sort of myopia you are displaying here is how they managed to do it.

Democracies are for the majority. It should always be so.

Don't forget governments and civil service in your list. 

Making it a party political issue is plain daft: they've all allowed it to happen.

OK, many of those holding these bizarre, "modern" views tend to be on the left in terms of their own political views, but most politicians in recent times have become beholden to it, and frankly scared of putting their heads above the parapet.

The same attitudes that let the grooming gangs persist for example.

Hopefully, some of them will now feel emboldened to express their views without fear.

Hearing last night that this ruling may now open the door to lots of litigation on behalf of those who have lost jobs etc. Not before time.

 

[Spider]

I've never had an issue with people being any gender they want, it's got fuck all to do with me.

That said, I'm probably old fashioned in my opinion that biologically there can only ever be 2 genders produced by nature. Nothing will ever change my opinion on that.

However, once you're born, you're perfectly entitled to call yourself whatever you want. I mean, some people say they're Liverpool fans and identify as scouse for fucks sake. By comparison, chucking a skirt and some lippy on whilst tucking your johnson into your groin barely registers.

The main problem a lot of people seem to have is the issue of blokes going into the girls bogs. There, for me, it gets well out of order. And having a 6' 4" bloke winning in the wimmins wrestling, that's not right either and deep down everyone knows it.

Marches, signs, flags and all that bollocks, well if you have an issue with it remember that football supporters walk around opposition towns every weekend draped in flags too, and are the first to whine when they are frowned upon.

Live and let live. But expect a bit of pisstaking, I mean come on, a chick with a dick? That'll never not be funny.

[frank_spencer]

Just now, Spider said:

That said, I'm probably old fashioned in my opinion that biologically there can only ever be 2 genders produced by nature. Nothing will ever change my opinion on that.

At minimum there's 3 sexes there is a small number of folk born a bit of male and a bit female.

Gender in the other hand is a social construct.

Do I think folk assigned male at birth should be competing in physical sports against those born as women, no. Does it really matter in chess, pool whatever, no.

It's a very nuanced subject and as is often the case any small detail gets lost in discussion. Whilst I agree women's spaces should be protected I'm not sure sending trans women to male spaces gives them any protection.

There is also a distinction to be made between trans people and drag.

[bolty58]

27 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Don't forget governments and civil service in your list. 

Making it a party political issue is plain daft: they've all allowed it to happen.

OK, many of those holding these bizarre, "modern" views tend to be on the left in terms of their own political views, but most politicians in recent times have become beholden to it, and frankly scared of putting their heads above the parapet.

The same attitudes that let the grooming gangs persist for example.

Hopefully, some of them will now feel emboldened to express their views without fear.

Hearing last night that this ruling may now open the door to lots of litigation on behalf of those who have lost jobs etc. Not before time.

 

Nail on head.

[Dimron]

6 hours ago, bolty58 said:

What twaddle.

The wokes have infiltrated all popular media, schools, universities and much more and been able to set the agenda.

The sort of myopia you are displaying here is how they managed to do it.

Democracies are for the majority. It should always be so.

We install a lot of washrooms and have been putting LGB TV GTX a whatever bogs into schools for yonks.

Working on an Army Camp a couple of years ago and the architect came up with an inclusive washroom, I queried it and was told very abruptly I was out of touch and to do what was on the drawings.

The Regimental CO came around to inspect before hand-over he went totally ballistic when he saw the baby blue and cerise walls, unisex fittings and the disabled stuff ... something like "I have an elite fighting unit not a refuge for puffs and spastics". Seven pound hammers were out the next day and we didn't see the trendy architect again 😄

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

3 hours ago, frank_spencer said:

At minimum there's 3 sexes there is a small number of folk born a bit of male and a bit female.

Sex is binary and there are only male and female

Intersex people are either one or the other rather than in-between, but have atypical genital development

As in Caster Semenya's case and likely Imane Khalif's

It's separate to the transgender debate

[London Wanderer]

20 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

Sex is binary and there are only male and female

Intersex people are either one or the other rather than in-between, but have atypical genital development

As in Caster Semenya's case and likely Imane Khalif's

It's separate to the transgender debate

Blew my mind a bit reading about that. https://novonordiskfonden.dk/en/news/more-women-than-expected-are-genetically-men/

You cannot see it if you do not know what you are looking for. One in 15,000 males is born and grows up as a girl. And neither these girls nor their parents know it. These girls do not discover anything different until puberty.

“Girls born with XY chromosomes are genetically boys but for a variety of reasons – mutations in genes that determine sexual development – the male characteristics are never expressed. They live their lives as girls and then women, and a few can even give birth. Our research, which is the first nationwide survey in the world, shows that this group is up to 50% larger than previously assumed. How these girls discover the facts and talk openly about their situation also varies greatly,” explains Claus Højbjerg Gravholt, who led the study and is Clinical Professor in the Department of Clinical Medicine of Aarhus University.

Can't help but feel sympathy for some of the athletes hounded by people & the media who don't have a clue about it.

[DazBob]

5 hours ago, Traf said:

As a parent of a trans child

There will be folk in here who will think it's 'your fault'.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

5 hours ago, Winchester White said:

It's fairly clear that common sense has been lost and that there is some folk on both sides of the debate who are intolerant of the opposing view.

It is.

The screeching gob shites simply make life difficult for those individuals genuinely "in the wrong body" for want of a better description. 

I've one family member who fully transitioned many years ago- she knew she wasn't a lad from around the age of 8.

Went through all sorts of stages as part of the process, including having to live as a woman, before consideration for hormone treatment and surgery. Took a long time, and dedication. 

Fully deserving of the rights of women for me.

A niece who has started hormone therapy and is wanting to become trans from what I understand. OK, fine, complete the full process.

On the other hand, I've a niece who dresses in an extremely feminine way, and quite revealing clothing at times, and has a girlfriend. Fine.

However she now insists on being called a bloke, is extremely pretentious and precious. Does nothing remotely worthy of such a consideration, and can be abusive to her parents. Some of her closest friends have conveniently done likewise at around the same time. 

Unlike the other two, with whom I have sympathy and understanding, she can get to fuck.

 

 

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

1 hour ago, London Wanderer said:

Blew my mind a bit reading about that. https://novonordiskfonden.dk/en/news/more-women-than-expected-are-genetically-men/

You cannot see it if you do not know what you are looking for. One in 15,000 males is born and grows up as a girl. And neither these girls nor their parents know it. These girls do not discover anything different until puberty.

“Girls born with XY chromosomes are genetically boys but for a variety of reasons – mutations in genes that determine sexual development – the male characteristics are never expressed. They live their lives as girls and then women, and a few can even give birth. Our research, which is the first nationwide survey in the world, shows that this group is up to 50% larger than previously assumed. How these girls discover the facts and talk openly about their situation also varies greatly,” explains Claus Højbjerg Gravholt, who led the study and is Clinical Professor in the Department of Clinical Medicine of Aarhus University.

Can't help but feel sympathy for some of the athletes hounded by people & the media who don't have a clue about it.

The reality as well is that they likely won't have found out about their condition until failing a test, and of course that happens publicly

[Traf]

1 hour ago, DazBob said:

There will be folk in here who will think it's 'your fault'.

Sadly, you’re probably right.

Personally I don’t give a shit. My now 20yr old ‘child’ who was born as my daughter wants to live their life as a male and they’re happier now than they’ve ever been.

His happiness is far more important to me.

[Winchester White]

14 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

The reality as well is that they likely won't have found out about their condition until failing a test, and of course that happens publicly

Not being deliberately obtuse, but surely if a woman gives birth they are perfectly entitled to call themselves a woman? Just going off that report LW posted btw.

Surely this makes things much more complicated for sports categories never mind socially?

[only1swanny]

Was thinking earlier though, 

When the issue arises regarding sport, it's regarding trans women in women's sport,  when it's about toilets it's about trans women using women's.. 

Tbh I don't give a monkeys who uses a mens changing room, not really bothered about toilets and although I don't do sports anymore, I'd have no issue going against a trans man on a sports field. 

So is it just a general distrust of men?