Politics

[Tonge moor green jacket]

20 hours ago, royal white said:

A new party 👀

 

 

Hmm.

Ben Habib is a really smart chap, and speaks with authority. 

Like Reform, they seem to be "opposed" to environmental concerns which may hold them back.

It is clear that Farage seems to have just toned down his rhetoric slightly on migrants, and maybe this is a balancing act to gain support, and so far, it's working.

How that would translate to policies if elected, or whether they would toughen up, who knows.

Reforms biggest issue is going to be putting financial accuracy and plausibility to their ideas. As the election eventually appears on the horizon, he's going to have to illustrate how it all gets paid for.

 

[kent_white]

10 hours ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

They don't and won't go to church, though, because they have no sincere religious belief are a not committed to the faith

They use Christianity as a social signifier for what might charitably be described social conservatism, which is ironic because the CofE trends toward a more socially liberal philosophy today

It's possible there might develop a more nationalist, socially conservative Anglican denomination but if so it'd only ever be very minor

Essentially, they're just cosplaying as religious because they like to see themselves as something similar to what the Knights Templar were

The great irony of all this is that the future of the Anglican church in this country likely lies with African Christian immigrants and those of African Christian heritage

Again - I completely agree with most of what you are saying. And I agree that they most certainly are cosplaying and haven't got a sincere religious bone in their body. I also think you're right about African Christians. And admittedly it's been some time since I've been to church - but back then the it was poorly attended and the congregation was almost exclusively white (and old). Africans tended to go to their own 'super churches' or ones that were a bit more happy clappy, and had African ministers with a stricter doctrine. Perhaps times have changed? 

But if I'm thinking about this - then you can be sure the 'strategists' on the far right will be thinking of it too. And the CofE should be. It's a threat - even if it's only a small threat at this moment in time and the church needs to be ready to react to it (in my opinion).

I think the new brethren will be at least be prepared to get pissed up and go to the Christmas carol concert this year. 😁 In future years, who knows? 

Be on guard is what I'm saying. 

It would be heartbreaking if the cross became another symbol that's hijacked by the far right (like the England flag and the poppy to a certain extent). 

They could do with revisiting Matthew 22:39 mind

[kent_white]

2 hours ago, Not in Crawley said:

It will. Being part of a congregation isnt just about going to church on a Sunday, I just dont believe there is the commitment or the numbers to think that the average local Anglican church is going to be overtaken by far right loonbags on some sort of misguided 11th century crusade cosplay.

Then again, if it starts happening and they actually listen to the scriptures based on tolerance, community and love for your fellow then that might not be a bad thing, it'd certainly stop them waving St George's crossed around on odd protest marches and like my local church might give themselves to doing a food drive every Friday for the poor/elderly in the community.

I very much doubt they will be deriving any deep spiritual meaning from a sermon. 

I think there's potential trouble down the line for the church and they need to be on their guard. 

Tommy Robinson could very easily be the next Archbish! 😉

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Blair was a more overtly religious character iirc.

Given the general appriach of some of the leading lights in the church, I would suggest it's a million miles away from being taken over by extremists.

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

4 hours ago, kent_white said:

Again - I completely agree with most of what you are saying. And I agree that they most certainly are cosplaying and haven't got a sincere religious bone in their body. I also think you're right about African Christians. And admittedly it's been some time since I've been to church - but back then the it was poorly attended and the congregation was almost exclusively white (and old). Africans tended to go to their own 'super churches' or ones that were a bit more happy clappy, and had African ministers with a stricter doctrine. Perhaps times have changed? 

But if I'm thinking about this - then you can be sure the 'strategists' on the far right will be thinking of it too. And the CofE should be. It's a threat - even if it's only a small threat at this moment in time and the church needs to be ready to react to it (in my opinion).

I think the new brethren will be at least be prepared to get pissed up and go to the Christmas carol concert this year. 😁 In future years, who knows? 

Be on guard is what I'm saying. 

It would be heartbreaking if the cross became another symbol that's hijacked by the far right (like the England flag and the poppy to a certain extent). 

They could do with revisiting Matthew 22:39 mind

I think you might be thinking about it as if it's a political party ripe for entryism but that's not how it is

To "take over" they'd have to have influence over the voting in a General Synod and to do that they'd have to attend theological college and train and priests and bishops

It's not simply a matter of turning up to the pews in big numbers

The African Christian churches remains as you've described but that point is they're a part of the Anglican Communion rather than the CofE

[kent_white]

44 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

I think you might be thinking about it as if it's a political party ripe for entryism but that's not how it is

To "take over" they'd have to have influence over the voting in a General Synod and to do that they'd have to attend theological college and train and priests and bishops

It's not simply a matter of turning up to the pews in big numbers

The African Christian churches remains as you've described but that point is they're a part of the Anglican Communion rather than the CofE

I mean take over the congregations. Not taken over the levers of power in the CofE. 

I suppose partly it comes down to what you class 'the church' as. A top down structure or an aggregate of it's congregation. I favour the latter as a definition. And I still don't think it would take a huge amount of effort to become the latter. Some of these people are very committed. 

How many people are in a typical church congregation on a Sunday these days? Fewer than 40 in most cases I'd guess. 

Only takes a relatively small number of people to start piling up from across Bolton and suddenly, the old dears are in the minority and 'patriots' are the balance of the congregation. 

And it only needs to work at one church for 'patriots' in the rest of the country to cotton on. 

It's just down to whether they could really organise like that, and whether they could be arsed/aren't too hungover to get out of bed on a Sunday morning. 

Anyway - as I've said. Time will tell. But it wouldn't suprise me at all to see this happen if the current trend continues. Onward Christian Soldiers and all that! 

Let's hope I'm wrong. 

[Cheese]

2 minutes ago, kent_white said:

I mean take over the congregations. Not taken over the levers of power in the CofE. 

I suppose partly it comes down to what you class 'the church' as. A top down structure or an aggregate of it's congregation. I favour the latter as a definition. And I still don't think it would take a huge amount of effort to become the latter. Some of these people are very committed. 

How many people are in a typical church congregation on a Sunday these days? Fewer than 40 in most cases I'd guess. 

Only takes a relatively small number of people to start piling up from across Bolton and suddenly, the old dears are in the minority and 'patriots' are the balance of the congregation. 

And it only needs to work at one church for 'patriots' in the rest of the country to cotton on. 

It's just down to whether they could really organise like that, and whether they could be arsed/aren't too hungover to get out of bed on a Sunday morning. 

Anyway - as I've said. Time will tell. But it wouldn't suprise me at all to see this happen if the current trend continues. Onward Christian Soldiers and all that! 

Let's hope I'm wrong. 

As if a load of thick racist coke heads are going to start attending church every Sunday as part of some massive plan to take it over. Fuck me.

[kent_white]

1 minute ago, Cheese said:

As if a load of thick racist coke heads are going to start attending church every Sunday as part of some massive plan to take it over. Fuck me.

They're not all 'thick racist coke heads' though Cheese. All though admittedly some of them are. 

[Cheese]

4 minutes ago, kent_white said:

They're not all 'thick racist coke heads' though Cheese. All though admittedly some of them are. 

Who are you talking about then? I highly doubt hordes of shy old racists are suddenly going to start swamping churches every Sunday in a coordinated effort to take them over.

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

For the sake of argument, if it did happen what would the end goal be for the far-right strategists?

They become a majority of the congregation on Sunday mornings, and then what?

What does that offer them that they don't already have?

[kent_white]

22 minutes ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

For the sake of argument, if it did happen what would the end goal be for the far-right strategists?

They become a majority of the congregation on Sunday mornings, and then what?

What does that offer them that they don't already have?

An air of legitimacy and normalisation. And another flag to rally around - and a brittle institution in their pocket. They'd potentially become a powerful lobby. In a similar (but probably watered down version) to the way that religion is utilised as a political tool on the US. Just a very British version of it. 

These people view immigration as an existential threat - and it's not a huge jump for me to see it moving from some bloke dressed up as a Knight Templar because he doesn't understand history, to some of the brighter ones using religion as a tool to bring people on the less extreme ends into the fold. It's tugging on the same heartstrings. 

Look at the numbers Reform are polling. They're not all thick old racists. And a lot of the people planning on voting for them probably still consider themselves 'Christian' on things like the census. 

That's could be an extremely powerful motivator if its used correctly. 

I suppose it just depends on how nefarious their very loose leadership are. But I'd be making inroads if I were them. 

[kent_white]

47 minutes ago, Cheese said:

Who are you talking about then? I highly doubt hordes of shy old racists are suddenly going to start swamping churches every Sunday in a coordinated effort to take them over.

You'll have to try to pull an answer from how I've responded to Aldo! 😁 It's an extremely nebulous idea which I find difficult to articulate. 

But one thing I've learned over the past couple of years is that you underestimate them at your peril. 

[Winchester White]

Can I just say those that dress as Knights Templar in fucking chainmail should be bummed to death by @gonzo mates from Blackpool.

[Cheese]

3 minutes ago, kent_white said:

You'll have to try to pull an answer from how I've responded to Aldo! 😁 It's an extremely nebulous idea which I find difficult to articulate. 

But one thing I've learned over the past couple of years is that you underestimate them at your peril. 

I tried, but I still think you're talking absolute shite.

[kent_white]

17 minutes ago, Cheese said:

I tried, but I still think you're talking absolute shite.

That's fine Cheese. You're perfectly entitled to do so! 👍

[jayjayoghani]

The far right infiltrating and doing a coup on the church sounds like a line from a Half Man Half Biscuit song. 

[mickbrown]

1 hour ago, jayjayoghani said:

The far right infiltrating and doing a coup on the church sounds like a line from a Half Man Half Biscuit song. 

There’s a man with a mullet going mad with a mallet in Millets. 

[DirtySanchez]

48 minutes ago, mickbrown said:

There’s a man with a mullet going mad with a mallet in Millets. 

I'm clowning by the Serpentine 

She's still drinking turpentine 

[bolty58]

12 hours ago, kent_white said:

It would be heartbreaking if the cross became another symbol that's hijacked by the far right (like the England flag and the poppy to a certain extent). 

They could do with revisiting Matthew 22:39 mind

The 'far right' FFS. England football fans for example? Don't you associate the politics of the right with patriotism and your side with internationalism? What would you expect 'them' to use as symbols then? The Jolly Roger has already been claimed by London Wanderer type ferals.

According to many on the left, the English flag is a 'racist' symbol so why would you care if it has been (as you say) 'hijacked'.

Never go to Ibrox on match day. They've 'hijacked' everything including due deference to the armed forces.

[Spider]

7 hours ago, bolty58 said:

The 'far right' FFS. England football fans for example? Don't you associate the politics of the right with patriotism and your side with internationalism? What would you expect 'them' to use as symbols then? The Jolly Roger has already been claimed by London Wanderer type ferals.

According to many on the left, the English flag is a 'racist' symbol so why would you care if it has been (as you say) 'hijacked'.

Never go to Ibrox on match day. They've 'hijacked' everything including due deference to the armed forces.

But of course, we should keep politics out of football

[kent_white]

9 hours ago, bolty58 said:

The 'far right' FFS. England football fans for example? Don't you associate the politics of the right with patriotism and your side with internationalism? What would you expect 'them' to use as symbols then? The Jolly Roger has already been claimed by London Wanderer type ferals.

According to many on the left, the English flag is a 'racist' symbol so why would you care if it has been (as you say) 'hijacked'.

Never go to Ibrox on match day. They've 'hijacked' everything including due deference to the armed forces.

No, not England football fans. Although you'd have to be numb to not understand that football fans get unfairly painted with the 'thick racists' brush by sections of society and the media because the flag has been hijacked by the far right. 

And no I don't make the association you're talking about. I feel as patriotic as anybody on a far right march, I can assure you of that. Which is why I care that it's been 'hijacked'. 

This idea that everyone who is on the left side of politics in the way that they view the world is bizarre. It's a broad church. And many of my views might be considered right wing by people of 'the let's and in 'the middle' too. I'm not that easy to pigeon hole. I doubt many people are. Yourself included. 

[Spider]

30 minutes ago, kent_white said:

No, not England football fans. Although you'd have to be numb to not understand that football fans get unfairly painted with the 'thick racists' brush by sections of society and the media because the flag has been hijacked by the far right. 

And no I don't make the association you're talking about. I feel as patriotic as anybody on a far right march, I can assure you of that. Which is why I care that it's been 'hijacked'. 

This idea that everyone who is on the left side of politics in the way that they view the world is bizarre. It's a broad church. And many of my views might be considered right wing by people of 'the let's and in 'the middle' too. I'm not that easy to pigeon hole. I doubt many people are. Yourself included. 

Course he is. And proudly so.

Hates politics in football until it suits him and he wants to drone on about a pub team from Scotland being the “last defenders of the British army” or some such shite.

Pure doublethink, just like a good commie.

[Sweep]

13 hours ago, bolty58 said:

 

Never go to Ibrox on match day. 

Wise words

 

For balance, avoid Parkhead as well

[bolty58]

5 hours ago, kent_white said:

No, not England football fans. Although you'd have to be numb to not understand that football fans get unfairly painted with the 'thick racists' brush by sections of society and the media because the flag has been hijacked by the far right. 

And no I don't make the association you're talking about. I feel as patriotic as anybody on a far right march, I can assure you of that. Which is why I care that it's been 'hijacked'. 

This idea that everyone who is on the left side of politics in the way that they view the world is bizarre. It's a broad church. And many of my views might be considered right wing by people of 'the let's and in 'the middle' too. I'm not that easy to pigeon hole. I doubt many people are. Yourself included. 

I am numb.

[DazBob]

1 hour ago, bolty58 said:

I am numb.

😁