Doncaster Rovers (A)

[Whitesince63]

Let’s be honest, individually those players should have done better yesterday but once again I’d blame the performance on too many changes both in personnel and in system. I thought against Mansfield was one of our best performances of the season, despite the result. Some of our football in the first half was way sublime except as usual our finishing and again we had no luck around the box. I accept the tiredness aspect to a point but I just think it’s too often used as an excuse to give other players minutes and keep them satisfied.
 

Yesterday for me was a perfect example with too many changes completely removing any fluidity. I haven’t the time to look at other teams but it seems to me that it’s the same players every week making the headlines. Castledine at Huddersfield, Jamie Read at Stevenage for example so why don’t they get tired? Conway starts every game and gets up and down the wing all game so why not tired? Give the players 60 minutes then rest them but stop this bloody stupid constantly changing selection process and keep a settled side.

[gonzo]

1 hour ago, Cheese said:

Schumacher got rid of the dead wood and bad apples in the summer. I'm not having that Toal, Johnston, Morley and Sheehan are responsible for our recent bad form due to mindset issues that have carried over from the Evatt-era. It's simply the League we're in. Anyone can beat anyone on any given day as League One players tend to be decent, but not quite good enough to get to the next level - otherwise they'd be playing higher up. There's smash-and-grab results every week, and fans of every team in the top half of the table probably think they're shit every other week. It's got to be one of the most difficult Leagues to escape, unless you've got a massive war chest to splurge on players who should be playing higher up - which we clearly haven't.

Indeed. We have a league 1 sqaud with a league 1 manager.

It's a war of attrition.

 

[Tombwfc]

3 hours ago, ianofcleveleys said:

No issue with those there yesterday giving some stick out, it was awful and I'd have joined in (I felt like booing at the telly for what good it'd have done).

I don't buy though the 'big club, big expectation = entitlement to ratchet up the stick' argument. Fleetwood's 2500 fans pay what they see as good money, just as ours do, they're no more or less entitled to dish it out if they see what they think is shite.

Bradford's fans, 15000+ of them had to suck up over a decade of dark days in an interminable L2, a prime example of big numbers, ground, resources being no guarantee of success.

Yes, the vast majority of managers would want a go at managing us, no doubt about it, and yes, our atmosphere (at its best) would be an intimidating factor for some away sides. Conversely though, when it was turning ugly last season, managers were using it as a motivation for their team, start well, score first, watch it turn nasty.

What I was getting at, is there's a fine line. If, collectively, the team has been shite and / or we think SS has lost the plot, let it be known at the end or afterwards, to them as a collective or him as the figurehead (again eithin acceptable boundaries), but in-game don't get on individual player's cases, boo them on or off etc. It really doesn't help. 

 

The 'toxic' part with Evatt came right at the very end when it was clear the wheels had long since come off (to everyone except Sharon). Before that he and the team continued to be backed and backed in big numbers home and away, despite many shocking results.

It just feels a bit of a cop out that whenever we have a really indefensible result/performance, rather than just agree it's shite and needs to improve, someone will bring up our fans as being the issue. As though we're an entitled, unmanageable basket case. Our fans are as patient as any in the country and it isn't them failing to live up to expectations. After 2 wins in 11 (and a twatting at Swindon), a few moans and groans at games is the least they should be allowed.

[gonzo]

1 minute ago, Tombwfc said:

 

The 'toxic' part with Evatt came right at the very end when it was clear the wheels had long since come off (to everyone except Sharon). Before that he and the team continued to be backed and backed in big numbers home and away, despite many shocking results.

It just feels a bit of a cop out that whenever we have a really indefensible result/performance, rather than just agree it's shite and needs to improve, someone will bring up our fans as being the issue. As though we're an entitled, unmanageable basket case. Our fans are as patient as any in the country and it isn't them failing to live up to expectations. After 2 wins in 11 (and a twatting at Swindon), a few moans and groans at games is the least they should be allowed.

Nobody has once blamed the fans in any way shape or form or alluded to us being a basket case.

 

[Ani]

People are saying our full backs are shit.

Our front 4 are shit.

Our Centre halves are shit. 
 

Yesterday our full backs especially Conway were left with very little support. The system is asking the wide attackers to also cover at the back, with Forss, Dalby and Burtow up front not sure who was expected to get back. 

Other than Dempsey none of our midfield get forward to support the attack. Dempsey got his 3rd goal of the season yesterday, Sheehan and Simons scored in one game each, Morley and EE not scored. Adds up to 6 goals from midfield. 
 

So the midfield is not providing cover for the wide defence or getting fwad to contribute significant goals. SS needs to change this in away games. We have 5 decent midfielders for this level. I get rotation at this time of year but untill late on in last 2 games formation was unchanged. He has shown flexibility ‘in game’ by playing Morley at the back. IMO in away games we have better options in house than we are currently utilising. We have spent last few years signing good players from other clubs in this division then being disappointed 

[Barnstoneworth White]

Did anyone see the starling murmaration over the home stand at the start of the second half?  Lasted for a good 15/20 minutes.  @Underpants has video proof as he's a twitcher.

Edited January 2 by Barnstoneworth White
Changed 'away' to 'home.'

[ianofcleveleys]

1 hour ago, Tombwfc said:

After 2 wins in 11 (and a twatting at Swindon), a few moans and groans at games is the least they should be allowed.

And that's what I said, I'd have booed them off myself. I also said its reasonable for SS to be questioned after days like yesterday, or indeed ones like Burton or Swindon.

Tying this in with another theme today, that of mentality, rather than being an 'entitled basket case', which I wasnt suggesting at all, we are, currently. a club that needs strong characters playing for it. Strong enough to see out a 46 game season, show leadership, front up, set standards and be able to take it on the chin and respond if a big support lets them know its not good enough. 

The same has been said about playing for Newcastle, and at times Everton. You could argue also West Ham at the minute and Sunderland when they were down with us.

Rather than any of our players showing any sort of arrogance, if anything its the opposite, a few have shrunk inside their shirts when the going's got tough and a big support has shown them they're not happy. I didn't think we had enough strong characters latterly under Evatt and I don't think we have now. That was something I expected SS to address and he hasn't. 

The line, however, and I'll stick to this, is they shouldn't have to be strong enough to withstand being booed onto or off the pitch, or within the game if they make a mistake. It shouldn't get that personal.

Edited January 2 by ianofcleveleys

[wakey]

Just watched full match on wanderers tv having dodged the results for the past day or so.

Performance was as bad as we've seen all season, on a par with Burton (didn't see Swindon).

First time this season my confidence in getting top 2 has been shaken.

[gonzo]

10 minutes ago, ianofcleveleys said:

And that's what I said, I'd have booed them off myself. I also said its reasonable for SS to be questioned after days like yesterday, or indeed ones like Burton or Swindon.

Tying this in with another theme today, that of mentality, rather than being an 'entitled basket case', which I wasnt suggesting at all, we are, currently. a club that needs strong characters playing for it. Strong enough to see out a 46 game season, show leadership, front up, set standards and be able to take it on the chin and respond if a big support lets them know its not good enough. 

The same has been said about playing for Newcastle, and at times Everton. You could argue also West Ham at the minute and Sunderland when they were down with us.

Rather than any of our players showing any sort of arrogance, if anything its the opposite, a few have shrunk inside their shirts when the going's got tough and a big support has shown them they're not happy. I didn't think we had enough strong characters latterly under Evatt and I don't think we have now. That was something I expected SS to address and he hasn't. 

The line, however, and I'll stick to this, is they shouldn't have to be strong enough to withstand being booed onto or off the pitch, or within the game if they make a mistake. It shouldn't get that personal.

Similar to other points above that we are the biggest club in the division with the highest expectation.

Evatt was afforded patience as he had plenty in the bank and still with all the obvious downfalls of his tenure he still had us fishing firmly round the autos and 90 minutes from Wembley. 

I've a feeling SS and this set of players won't be afforded such patience and my concern is that they and possibly him might not be able to handle pressure.

Currently it's just not good enough and none of them have any credit in the bank.

[Roger_Dubuis]

34 minutes ago, gonzo said:

 

I've a feeling SS and this set of players won't be afforded such patience and my concern is that they and possibly him might not be able to handle pressure.

 

If he can manage a team to finish above Ipswich and Sheffield Wednesday in a 3rd Division promotion race he can handle pressure.

Can he get folk like Sheehan, McAtee. and Randall to roll their sleeves up and graft points out like Plymouth could? Probably not, and unfortunately despite trying in the summer transfer window he couldn't get rid of them

[Tombwfc]

2 hours ago, gonzo said:

Nobody has once blamed the fans in any way shape or form or alluded to us being a basket case.

 

 

Literally in this thread people are being called 'entitled thickos' for not being pleased we got a point yesterday. And you yourself talking about us being a difficult club to manage because we have a massive fanbase and high expectations.

It's not that hard - take your hyped up, vastly more expensive players and find a way to beat the absolute dross of League One. Which includes having more than one shot on target against a side who'd lost five in a row conceding 16 goals. It's not the weight of expectation which is why we're 6th, it's players and a manager currently not delivering on what they were brought here to do.

[gonzo]

28 minutes ago, Tombwfc said:

 

Literally in this thread people are being called 'entitled thickos' for not being pleased we got a point yesterday. And you yourself talking about us being a difficult club to manage because we have a massive fanbase and high expectations.

It's not that hard - take your hyped up, vastly more expensive players and find a way to beat the absolute dross of League One. Which includes having more than one shot on target against a side who'd lost five in a row conceding 16 goals. It's not the weight of expectation which is why we're 6th, it's players and a manager currently not delivering on what they were brought here to do.

I think the pressure and expectation here is bigger than any other club in the league. And rightly so. 

The managers remit is promotion and nothing else. 

That without buckets of free flowing cash makes us an extremely hard club to manage imo and it won't take much for it to unravel for SS if those expectations aren't met pretty sharpish.

Some of the hysteria after the odd result on social media is just downright ridiculous, but where it counts, at the game, our support is impeccable.

....that won't last forever and I worry how he will handle the pressure if things stary getting ugly.

He needs to get a grip of things pronto.

[Tombwfc]

In the past four seasons Birmingham, Wrexham, Derby, Portsmouth, Sheff Wed, Ipswich and Sunderland have gone up. Cardiff are obviously looking good too. All of those are similar to us in terms of what their expectations were (nothing less than promotion). Granted a notable couple had higher budgets, but not all. Rotherham and Wigan were recently relegated in 21/22 and so would've expected to go up. Charlton would've had high expectations last year with Nathan Jones. Then you've got Plymouth and Oxford as the other two.

Of the above, only Sheff Wed's manager had multiple cracks at it. 

Point being, underdog promotion stories in this league are very rare (unless a big club absolutely bottles a playoff final). Bigger resources are a far greater positive than heightened expectations are a negative.

Every promotion is hard fought and well earned, but as far as being a particularly tough job goes - nothing we're asking of Schumacher hasn't been done before year after year in this division by clubs with our resource advantage over the vast majority of the league.

[Stig]

23 hours ago, Zog1 said:

4231 Is fine it just needs to be played with versatility, today was a none attempt at fixing the very thing that wasnt broken. 

Get the wingers to get down the by line occassionally and cross like a normal team for once. 

 

I've read through everything posted on yesterday's performance and for me this is the biggest issue. Just get the ball crossed to the two big units we have up front. 

I felt sorry for Dalby and Burstow at one stage when they'd bust a gut to get forward for Conway to cross and he didn't, we then passed it around the back all the way to the other wing, back to Forino again who punted in cross field looking for Gale and we lost it.

Similarly we have a tendency of every attacking throw in going back to our goalie, allowing the opposition to reset. Just throw it in the mixer. When Forss didn't cross at the end of the first half I couldn't believe it.

We're never going to score enough goals playing this way. There's just no coherent style of attack apart from get it to the wingers and they'll try to cut in to score a wonder goal.

@Johnnyrotten mentions that Collins would have scored more in this team than Dalby and Burstow (since his form dropped off) and he's right. Collins thrived in creating something out of nothing. Whereas the strikers we have need some service.

I actually think the squad we have is very good, and the changes game to game aren't a problem, it's the style of play completely. Too risk averse to play progressive passes through the middle when they're on and looking for the easy percentage pass backwards when a good crossing opportunity is on. No amount of January transfers will change that attitude 

[Stig]

Only positive from yesterday is Miller coming in and making saves. That's a new thing for us this season.

In seriousness though, he did more than enough to keep his place

[boogs]

3 hours ago, Barnstoneworth White said:

Did anyone see the starling murmaration over the home stand at the start of the second half?  Lasted for a good 15/20 minutes.  @Underpants has video proof as he's a twitcher.

Yes, and I took it a sign of how shit the game was that everyone around us was far more upbeat and interested in that for a good 10 mins than anything else that happened all afternoon 😂

[desperado]

12 minutes ago, boogs said:

Yes, and I took it a sign of how shit the game was that everyone around us was far more upbeat and interested in that for a good 10 mins than anything else that happened all afternoon 😂

It was lovely and quite bizarre how much interest and appreciation a load of pissed up fans were giving it!  It was a nice distraction

We joked that our next Cricket club outing (we’ve lost every one up to yesterday, so progress there 😊) should be a trip to a bird Sanctuary at sunset we’d get far more enjoyment. Big JPs son said we’d still find a way to lose (we were 1-0 down at the time) 

Edited January 2 by desperado

[Barnstoneworth White]

38 minutes ago, boogs said:

Yes, and I took it a sign of how shit the game was that everyone around us was far more upbeat and interested in that for a good 10 mins than anything else that happened all afternoon 😂

Aye, that and getting collared by the sniffer dog* were the highlights of the day.

* I think it took an interest in the scent from my Vic's inhaler (honest officer) 🙂

[gonzo]

There's a huge flock of them live under North Pier in Blackpool.

At daybreak they fly inland to feed and fuck about then come back at the same point of the sunsetting every single day.

Filmed this the other day

 

 

[Johnnyrotten]

8 hours ago, Eddie said:

I was thinking of the very early away games in the season, probably the first 4 where we got very little points wise from Stockport, Barnsley, Blackpool and Orient but from memory (you’re right, time might be a healer) we were the far better team in each and had a good argument for why we should have won them all with a bit of luck.

Now we just look shit

I think I covered it in my earlier post and I'm not labouring a point, but to reply to you, I will accept your assessment of Blackpool and Orient as I was unable to watch those games.  Fair enough.  I did think we played well first half at Stockport and didn't deserve to be losing at H-T.  2nd half wasn't terrible, but we looked toothless.  Barnsley were definitely better than us and should have been winning well before McGoldrick's goal.  We weren't at the races till the sending off (remember how bad Randall and JDC were?), then we upped our game, Morley and EE played well and McAtee equalised which was deserved at the time, but no way did we deserve more.

[Traf]

2 hours ago, Roger_Dubuis said:

Can he get folk like Sheehan, McAtee. and Randall to roll their sleeves up and graft points out like Plymouth could? Probably not, and unfortunately despite trying in the summer transfer window he couldn't get rid of them

Some of the stuff aimed at Sheehan makes me piss. Putting him in the Randall/McAtee bracket is very unfair.
Sheehan works as hard as anyone in that team and I doubt Schumacher tried to get rid of him last summer. I'm pretty sure someone would have taken him.

Sheehan's biggest downside is probably his age.

[ianofcleveleys]

2 hours ago, Roger_Dubuis said:

If he can manage a team to finish above Ipswich and Sheffield Wednesday in a 3rd Division promotion race he can handle pressure.

This point has some merit, you'd like to think that's why he was appointed. The difference perhaps is that, at Plymouth, he joined up at the early stages of a journey under new ownership, rather than on the back of an over-indulged, expensive failure. He signed up for it though, had apparently done his homework and knew the crack.

[Ani]

32 minutes ago, Traf said:

Some of the stuff aimed at Sheehan makes me piss. Putting him in the Randall/McAtee bracket is very unfair.
Sheehan works as hard as anyone in that team and I doubt Schumacher tried to get rid of him last summer. I'm pretty sure someone would have taken him.

Sheehan's biggest downside is probably his age.

Look who wrote it. 

[boogs]

1 hour ago, Barnstoneworth White said:

Aye, that and getting collared by the sniffer dog* were the highlights of the day.

* I think it took an interest in the scent from my Vic's inhaler (honest officer) 🙂

Was my 10 year old nephews first away game yesterday. When we were all getting frisked on way in he proudly marched up to the guy, arms outstretched then he said to him "no your alright little man". He was gutted he didn't get searched 🤦‍♂️😂

[Johnnyrotten]

6 hours ago, Whitesince63 said:

Let’s be honest, individually those players should have done better yesterday but once again I’d blame the performance on too many changes both in personnel and in system. I thought against Mansfield was one of our best performances of the season, despite the result. Some of our football in the first half was way sublime except as usual our finishing and again we had no luck around the box. I accept the tiredness aspect to a point but I just think it’s too often used as an excuse to give other players minutes and keep them satisfied.
 

Yesterday for me was a perfect example with too many changes completely removing any fluidity. I haven’t the time to look at other teams but it seems to me that it’s the same players every week making the headlines. Castledine at Huddersfield, Jamie Read at Stevenage for example so why don’t they get tired? Conway starts every game and gets up and down the wing all game so why not tired? Give the players 60 minutes then rest them but stop this bloody stupid constantly changing selection process and keep a settled side.

I've given you a like as its a decent argument well put, but my only caveat is god knows what our best 11 looks like.  We only have to look at the options at no.10 (Randall, Forss, Dempsey, even Burstow) and none of them are good/consistent enough home and away to nail down the position regardless of form.  If I had to pick players that would justify a "play every game if fit" policy it would be Tutu (no serious competition), Johnston (because left footed), Conway, Sheehan, ACD.  Even Gale is very inconsistent.

It isn't an easy balance.

By the way, that Castledine at Huddersfield on loan from Chelsea is quality.  If we had him, Keillor Dunn and a real striker in this team we'd walk it.  Easy!