Politics

[Casino]

Over 30 percent of Tory voters are remainers

Fcuk the right wing dinosaurs off and the Tories can attract younger voters

Edited May 19, 2019 by Casino

[Tonge moor green jacket]

18 minutes ago, Casino said:

Over 30 percent of Tory voters are remainers

Fcuk the right wing dinosaurs off and the Tories can attract younger voters

Which would likely pile them in with brexit party, and split the remain parties' votes.

I'm not sure that I'm that keen on Farage for PM. Not sure he would be either.

[Sweep]

Farage will never get a seat in Parliament, nevermind become PM

[Mounts Kipper]

25 minutes ago, Sweep said:

Farage will never get a seat in Parliament, nevermind become PM

Watch this space. 

[frank_spencer]

The man who has tried and failed numerous times to become an mp but doesn't want the one vote that went his way redone. 

[Escobarp]

11 minutes ago, frank_spencer said:

The man who has tried and failed numerous times to become an mp but doesn't want the one vote that went his way redone. 

Why would anyone who believes in democracy want a vote redone frank? 

and has he ever asked the opposite and for votes that didn’t go his way to be redone? 

Genuine questions.  

I don’t like Farage one bit as it seems do you but I’m struggling to see your point which is unusual as you tend to speak a lot of sense. 

[frank_spencer]

32 minutes ago, Escobarp said:

Why would anyone who believes in democracy want a vote redone frank? 

and has he ever asked the opposite and for votes that didn’t go his way to be redone? 

Genuine questions.  

I don’t like Farage one bit as it seems do you but I’m struggling to see your point which is unusual as you tend to speak a lot of sense. 

I'd like it redone because the whole thing has become a massive shit show. If you can be arsed go back to when the vote happened and you'll see I didn't like the result but accepted the fact that the country had elected to leave the EU and felt we should get on with it. 

What has happened over the past few years has made me believe that we are heading towards disaster where each option seems as shitty as the other and those in charge haven't a fucking clue what to do. What direction the nation takes needs to be put to the people. Even if its done in a proportional representation kind of way where people rank their preferred choices and we work from there. 

Farage is a twat who has changed parties and seats in attempts to be an mp. 

[Mounts Kipper]

9 hours ago, frank_spencer said:

I'd like it redone because the whole thing has become a massive shit show. If you can be arsed go back to when the vote happened and you'll see I didn't like the result but accepted the fact that the country had elected to leave the EU and felt we should get on with it. 

What has happened over the past few years has made me believe that we are heading towards disaster where each option seems as shitty as the other and those in charge haven't a fucking clue what to do. What direction the nation takes needs to be put to the people. Even if its done in a proportional representation kind of way where people rank their preferred choices and we work from there. 

Farage is a twat who has changed parties and seats in attempts to be an mp. 

And when we vote to leave again, what then? Even if it’s  48-52 remain, what then? A second referendum would be a waste of time and most likely inconclusive.

The message was loud and clear in 2016, very little has changed in the demographics since then, despite parliament continuing project fear and desperately trying to weasel out of actioning the result of the referendum.  

Unless remainers accept the decision the political impasse will continue, brexiteers are going nowhere and will hijack every election until the referendum result is delivered. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[frank_spencer]

18 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

And when we vote to leave again, what then? Even if it’s  48-52 remain, what then? A second referendum would be a waste of time and most likely inconclusive.

The message was loud and clear in 2016, very little has changed in the demographics since then, despite parliament continuing project fear and desperately trying to weasel out of actioning the result of the referendum.  

Then the decision has been made with people knowing all the facts and the government can crack on. They are not doing it themselves are they?

Put the options on a balot get the masses to rank them and go with the choice that comes top. No deal, TMs deal or scrap the whole thing. 

Something needs to be done to make the decision rather than continuing with the current shit show. 

[Ani]

26 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

And when we vote to leave again, what then? Even if it’s  48-52 remain, what then? A second referendum would be a waste of time and most likely inconclusive.

The message was loud and clear in 2016, very little has changed in the demographics since then, despite parliament continuing project fear and desperately trying to weasel out of actioning the result of the referendum.  

The message was not loud and clear. The margin was small so not loud and Leave was not defined so not clear. 

What do you think the last 67894 pages on here have been about ? 

If we leave with no deal with eu and no trade deals with anyone else what happens ? 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Ani

[Mounts Kipper]

4 minutes ago, frank_spencer said:

Then the decision has been made with people knowing all the facts and the government can crack on. They are not doing it themselves are they?

Put the options on a balot get the masses to rank them and go with the choice that comes top. No deal, TMs deal or scrap the whole thing. 

Something needs to be done to make the decision rather than continuing with the current shit show. 

This is the problem, remainers won’t accept the result, it should be no deal or TM deal, scrap it should not be on the ballot paper. Accept the initial result and I’d be more than happy to have the binary option to leave WTO or TM deal. But of course remainers won’t accept the first referendum. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[Ani]

Mounts if we opt for WTO terms do we not need a trade agreement as well ? 

A bit like accepting to deal with a company using ‘standard terms of business’ ? 

Farage could not name a country that traded under WTO terms without an agreement on Question Time. 

[bolty58]

Something will be done. The Conservative Party will oust May and install a Leaver PM which is what should have been done in the first place. We'd be out on No Deal after all the faffing about by Drunker, Barmier and Fuckoffstadt etc. and be well past the short term pain by now. More than 2 years wasted.

[Mounts Kipper]

36 minutes ago, Ani said:

Mounts if we opt for WTO terms do we not need a trade agreement as well ? 

A bit like accepting to deal with a company using ‘standard terms of business’ ? 

Farage could not name a country that traded under WTO terms without an agreement on Question Time. 

It’s not a reason to not action the will of the people, if you can’t trade just on WTO we should then make sure we agree deals as soon as we have confirmed we are leaving but only after said trade deals are agreed, now if we put binary option leave on WTO only after trade deals are agreed or TM deal as a confirmatory vote to the people then I’d be in favour of whatever option won that vote as the route we should take. FWIW id think TM deal would win, it wouldn’t be my favourite outcome but I’d fucking accept it. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Mounts Kipper

[MickyD]

10 hours ago, frank_spencer said:

Even if its done in a proportional representation kind of way where people rank their preferred choices and we work from there. 

Proportional representation in a two horse race?

Vote 1 - Leave
Vote 2 - Stay

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Frank, the shit show as you describe it has been created by parliament. Nothing to do with brexit itself.

The only way it can be judged is to get on with it and see in a few years time.

Using the impasse created by some undemocratic, soft arse MPs, as a means of judging the validity of it, is really clutching at straws.

[Winchester White]

24 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Frank, the shit show as you describe it has been created by parliament. Nothing to do with brexit itself.

The only way it can be judged is to get on with it and see in a few years time.

Using the impasse created by some undemocratic, soft arse MPs, as a means of judging the validity of it, is really clutching at straws.

The shit show was created by leavers having no credible plan to leave something we have been part of for 40 years. It will take a huge amount of time, effort and money to untangle ourselves from the EU.

That is my main issue with this, people promising things they couldn't possibly deliver.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Winchester White
Shit grammar

[Traf]

Probably mentioned elsewhere, but farage is in Bolton today...

[Tonge moor green jacket]

17 minutes ago, Winchester White said:

The shit show was created by leavers having no credible plan to leave something we have been part of for 40 years. It will take a huge amount of time, effort and money to untangle ourselves from the EU.

That is my main issue with this, people promising things they couldn't possibly deliver.

I've posted about this many times. It isn't true. You can find it yourself if you wish, but members of the erg etc were asked to help initially. They gave plans and advice to the team charged with undertaking negotiations.

These were then completely ignored, no doubt under direction of TM. 

At this point it seems the process was on the rocks.

Once again, this no plan suggestion is used because it's convenient. Despite it not being accurate.

She lost two brexit ministers because she deviated from the path that was proposed. That was her choice, rightly or wrongly, and we ended up where we are now.

[Mounts Kipper]

32 minutes ago, Traf said:

Probably mentioned elsewhere, but farage is in Bolton today...

It’ll be on periscope later I’d think. 

[Winchester White]

30 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

I've posted about this many times. It isn't true. You can find it yourself if you wish, but members of the erg etc were asked to help initially. They gave plans and advice to the team charged with undertaking negotiations.

These were then completely ignored, no doubt under direction of TM. 

At this point it seems the process was on the rocks.

Once again, this no plan suggestion is used because it's convenient. Despite it not being accurate.

She lost two brexit ministers because she deviated from the path that was proposed. That was her choice, rightly or wrongly, and we ended up where we are now.

I was specifically talking about those making promises before the referendum. Once we voted leave those in Government had to try and make it work but realised it wasn't quite as easy as hoped. But of course the A Team of Davies, Raab & Johnson would have dealt with all much better? Nah. I do however believe May has been shambolic. 

[Ani]

4 hours ago, Mounts Kipper said:

It’s not a reason to not action the will of the people, if you can’t trade just on WTO we should then make sure we agree deals as soon as we have confirmed we are leaving but only after said trade deals are agreed, now if we put binary option leave on WTO only after trade deals are agreed or TM deal as a confirmatory vote to the people then I’d be in favour of whatever option won that vote as the route we should take. FWIW id think TM deal would win, it wouldn’t be my favourite outcome but I’d fucking accept it. 

But no deal was also not an option so how is that the will of the people. We had 2 options stay or leave with a deal.  If you go back every leave supporter talked about a deal of some type. So why is No Deal the wish of the people ? 

[bwfcfan5]

2 hours ago, Winchester White said:

I was specifically talking about those making promises before the referendum. Once we voted leave those in Government had to try and make it work but realised it wasn't quite as easy as hoped. But of course the A Team of Davies, Raab & Johnson would have dealt with all much better? Nah. I do however believe May has been shambolic. 

Yes. May is useless but she inherited a very difficult job because the brexit promised as in "land of milk and honey with no downsides" is and always was completely undeliverable.

Then you have the usual Brexit mad men telling her for 2 years that the Irish border problem is easily fixable without actually offering up any sort of solution that stands up to scrutiny of international law. Then you have one of them eulogise about WTO and how the situation can be managed whilst the former head of the WTO makes gestures suggesting "talking absolute rubbish" in the background. Yet nobody will wake up and smell the coffee.

Brexit was delivered on a platform of lies by a bunch of fraudsters. Its a political idea - but turning it into a reality is very very difficult. And the reality is going to be nothing like what was promised. And when inevitably others try and fail more excuses will follow as to why they did. Just like the absolute nonsense now about "remainer plotters" - May being a remainer - parliament obstructing the process - the BBC - everything they can find to blame things for a situation they knew deep down was not solvable. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

2 hours ago, Winchester White said:

I was specifically talking about those making promises before the referendum. Once we voted leave those in Government had to try and make it work but realised it wasn't quite as easy as hoped. But of course the A Team of Davies, Raab & Johnson would have dealt with all much better? Nah. I do however believe May has been shambolic. 

Quite right, there was no specified type of leave.

On that basis I was quite happy to have a negotiated agreement. Within that has to be some compromise.

Unfortunately, it seems she marginalised one lot very early on.

Then stitched up Raab by changing the text after agreement as made, without consulting him.

Doubt we'll ever know the full ins and outs, but it seems increasingly she has managed to piss off elements of her party as well as others. Thus weakening her position and entrenching the views  of others.

Getting into bed with Corbyn has pissed off even moderates within her party, which was the final nail.

[Salford Trotter]

1 hour ago, Ani said:

But no deal was also not an option so how is that the will of the people. We had 2 options stay or leave with a deal.  If you go back every leave supporter talked about a deal of some type. So why is No Deal the wish of the people ? 

Exactly the point I have been making too, we were sold a pack of lies from both sides so the only fair thing to do, now we have more knowledge of what is involved, is we go back and ask the question again with No Deal (if we draw a line under the negotiations and no further talks with the EU take place) or Remain as the options.