Meanwhile in Ukraine

[kent_white]

10 minutes ago, royal white said:

When you look at that over 3 years between multiple countries it doesn’t really amount to much does and the majority of talks appear to be in the early stages of the war. It looks like Europe have just been prepared to sit back and throw money at it and hope for the best  
 

VZ seems to want what both America and Europe are attempting to offer. I think it’s likely to come down to one or the other (or one and a bit of the other) 

Its frightening that a country 1000s of miles away which is trillions in debt is “holding all the cards” 

That's your interpretation. My interpretation is that the strategy was to sanction Russia heavily, support Ukraine with arms and wait until the Russian economy and or losses were so significant that they had no option but to come to a settlement from a position of weakness. Which aside from physically putting boots on the ground always seemed like the most sensible option to me. And one which is (or at least was) bearing fruit until Trump ripped up the playbook. 

Russia has made marginal gains in recent times - it's economy is really starting to struggle and they've got manpower problems unless they choose to mobilise. 

It might not sound as sexy - or happen as quickly. But I think it's the best strategy we've had to ending the war on favourable terms for Ukraine. 

I'm absolutely positive that if a Western leader had rocked up at the Kremlin and told them they could keep what they have - Putin would have listened. But we didn't because of ethics and lessons from history. 

Where we went wrong is being too timid, not giving Ukraine what it needed quickly enough or in sufficient quantities and showing our hand by telling them from the outset that we would rule out sending troops. 

That was weakness on Biden's part. It's capitulation on Trump's. 

[Sweep]

1 hour ago, royal white said:

Has anyone from Europe attempted to have talks with Russia? 

I don't know, but I'd be really surprised if not a single European leader had even attempted to speak to Putin/Russia at least once in the last 3 years on the matter

[Farrelli]

31 minutes ago, kent_white said:

I'm happy to go with whatever VZ and the Ukrainian people want. 

I would be hugely surprised if nobody from Europe has attempted some sort of dialogue with Russia. 

Here's what Claude AI said when I asked it if Europe had attempted any dialogue by the way..... 

"Since the beginning of Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, there have been various diplomatic efforts and dialogue attempts between European leaders and Russia, though these have varied in frequency, scope, and effectiveness over time.

Several key European leaders maintained communication channels with President Putin, especially in the early stages of the conflict:

- French President Emmanuel Macron held multiple phone calls with Putin, particularly in the first few months of the war
- German Chancellor Olaf Scholz similarly maintained periodic communication with Putin
- Austrian Chancellor Karl Nehammer met with Putin in Moscow in April 2022
- Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán has maintained closer relations with Russia compared to other EU leaders

However, these dialogue attempts faced significant challenges:

1. As the war progressed, direct high-level communication between most European leaders and Russia decreased
2. The EU imposed multiple sanctions packages against Russia
3. Many diplomatic channels were scaled back or suspended
4. Peace talks between Ukraine and Russia that took place in Belarus and Turkey in early 2022 did not lead to lasting solutions

There have been some mediation efforts by third parties, including Turkey's attempts to facilitate grain export agreements, and various peace proposals from countries like China and Brazil, though these haven't led to significant breakthroughs.

The effectiveness of dialogue has been limited by fundamental disagreements about the war itself, Ukraine's sovereignty, and conditions for potential negotiations."

 

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/02/07/europe/ukraine-russia-news-monday-intl
 

Macron tried on the eve of the invasion as did a few others including Liz Truss. Putin was going to invade regardless.

They have not been listening to anyone since then. They are busy spinning propaganda about their “special military operation”.

[Farrelli]

28 minutes ago, Bertie said:

Russia invaded Ukraine.

Ukraine doesn’t want to cede their territory to Russia.

Europe/UK will back the democratic will of Ukraine.

Russia doesn’t appear to want to withdraw….yet.

What’s there to talk about?

That is it really. Rewarding the aggressor can never be the answer.  

[royal white]

11 minutes ago, kent_white said:

That's your interpretation. My interpretation is that the strategy was to sanction Russia heavily, support Ukraine with arms and wait until the Russian economy and or losses were so significant that they had no option but to come to a settlement from a position of weakness. Which aside from physically putting boots on the ground always seemed like the most sensible option to me. And one which is (or at least was) bearing fruit until Trump ripped up the playbook. 

Russia has made marginal gains in recent times - it's economy is really starting to struggle and they've got manpower problems unless they choose to mobilise. 

It might not sound as sexy - or happen as quickly. But I think it's the best strategy we've had to ending the war on favourable terms for Ukraine. 

I'm absolutely positive that if a Western leader had rocked up at the Kremlin and told them they could keep what they have - Putin would have listened. But we didn't because of ethics and lessons from history. 

Where we went wrong is being too timid, not giving Ukraine what it needed quickly enough or in sufficient quantities and showing our hand by telling them from the outset that we would rule out sending troops. 

That was weakness on Biden's part. It's capitulation on Trump's. 

See with this I agree, which is why I roll my eyes when people keep talking about Hitler and Russia invading and conquering Europe. That aint happening. 
 

However with what they have at the moment they won’t be leaving without a fight. That fight could take years, even decades. 
 

I don’t think any leader is going to rock up to the Kremlin and say you can have all you have taken, this is where talks take place. Russia obviously didn’t want talks on the eve of the invasion or probably within the firsts 12-18 months as they made a lot of ground. It’s clearly obvious the best time to talk would have been anytime over the past 12 months (give or take) when things haven’t been going their way. Both Europe and America ignored that hence why The Don is in the position he is in now. 

[royal white]

27 minutes ago, Bertie said:

As each day goes by I honestly think the US could get sidelined in the process, or at least their role significantly diminished. Their actions so far have clearly been pushing for Ukraine to capitulate/surrender…..which is unacceptable to them.  Not a serious option in finding a quick resolution for a sustainable peace. As a minimum need to be much more even handed to force both parties to compromise.  Perhaps Trumpys statement this morning is a belated step in the right direction.

I think the only thing stopping that is VZ. If VZ wants American help then he will have to cede land. 
 

 

[Sweep]

Just now, royal white said:

I think the only thing stopping that is VZ. If VZ wants American help then he will have to cede land. 
 

 

....and give up the minerals as well, which I guess is a biggie, as they'll potentially need them in the future to pay back the UK/EU loans

Ultimately, and it's not a pleasant thought, but land will no doubt be ceded if this is ever to end, I guess the negotiations (if they ever happen) will be around that sticking point, as you'd imagine Russia and Ukraine probably have very different thoughts on the amount of land. We may get the odd sporadic ceasefire I'm sure, but this conflict probably has the ability to rumble on for many, many more years yet 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

1 hour ago, kent_white said:

Weird that they're doing this after you've withdrawn intelligence support isn't it? You massively incompetent orange fuckwit! 

 

 

On the face of it yes.

Nevertheless, it's a more balanced approach from Trump.

Maybe he received a "promise" that Russia wouldn't launch another bombardment pending talks with Ukraine, which they reneged on?

Also it comes immediately following the UK's agreement to supply many new drones as part of our support- maybe a response to that too.

It may turn out to be a big mistake by Putin and his generals. 

[kent_white]

4 minutes ago, royal white said:

I think the only thing stopping that is VZ. If VZ wants American help then he will have to cede land. 
 

 

I think he's already said that he's open to ceding some territory as part of a peace deal hadn't he? 

I might have got that wrong though as it was a couple of months back..... 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

2 minutes ago, kent_white said:

I think he's already said that he's open to ceding some territory as part of a peace deal hadn't he? 

I might have got that wrong though as it was a couple of months back..... 

As previously, the Ukrainian incursion into the Kursk region may prove to be a masterstroke in this regard.

 

[royal white]

7 minutes ago, Sweep said:

....and give up the minerals as well, which I guess is a biggie, as they'll potentially need them in the future to pay back the UK/EU loans

Ultimately, and it's not a pleasant thought, but land will no doubt be ceded if this is ever to end, I guess the negotiations (if they ever happen) will be around that sticking point, as you'd imagine Russia and Ukraine probably have very different thoughts on the amount of land. We may get the odd sporadic ceasefire I'm sure, but this conflict probably has the ability to rumble on for many, many more years yet 

To be honest the mineral deals should be open to any country that helps. There’s got to be something in it for those helping out. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

1 minute ago, royal white said:

To be honest the mineral deals should be open to any country that helps. There’s got to be something in it for those helping out. 

We've already done it. I posted the link to the government website that outlined our 100 year agreement. 

It's a bit vague, but does mention just that amongst other things.

[Sweep]

2 minutes ago, royal white said:

To be honest the mineral deals should be open to any country that helps. There’s got to be something in it for those helping out. 

100% agree, but Trumpton wants to snaffle them all for the US (and I don't blame him to be honest, it's what the EU or UK should also be doing)

[kent_white]

6 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

As previously, the Ukrainian incursion into the Kursk region may prove to be a masterstroke in this regard.

 

Exactly. If we're holding onto territory then it would make sense for Ukraine to retain Kursk? 

I think some sort of agreed land bridge to Crimea would be a reasonable compromise on behalf of the Ukrainians. Providing it's backed up with security guarantees if things go pear shaped. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

The Crimean bridge could do with being "taken out" before any ceasefire.

[Spider]

A quick reminder that a sovereign nation was invaded without any justification whatsoever and letting them keep a single acre of that land is a victory for them that is well gay

Edited March 7, 2025 by Spider

[royal white]

2 minutes ago, Spider said:

A quick reminder that a sovereign nation was invaded without any justification whatsoever and letting them keep a single acre of that land is a victory for them that is well gay

Modern war. Get with the times, it will hurt Russias feelings if Ukraine take it all back 

[Spider]

8 minutes ago, royal white said:

Modern war. Get with the times, it will hurt Russias feelings if Ukraine take it all back 

The times are Trump.

So Russia will just need to man up

[BobyBrno]

I haven’t a clue what’s going on.🤷‍♂️

 

[kent_white]

2 minutes ago, BobyBrno said:

I haven’t a clue what’s going on.🤷‍♂️

 

You're not the only one! 😁

[tyldesley_white]

30 minutes ago, BobyBrno said:

I haven’t a clue what’s going on.🤷‍♂️

 

At a guess, Putin told him one thing and as done what VZ said he would do

[BobyBrno]

25 minutes ago, tyldesley_white said:

At a guess, Putin told him one thing and as done what VZ said he would do

I seriously hope you’re right. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if Trump turned round and said to Putin  “And you will know my name is Donald when I lay my vengeance upon thee!” 

He’d shit himself (Putin) and Donald would be a hero all around the world.

Don’t think that will happen though sadly.

(Credit to Quentin ©️)

[Sweep]

2 hours ago, BobyBrno said:

I haven’t a clue what’s going on.🤷‍♂️

 

I'm sure some will make out like it's all part of a masterplan. I suspect the reality is that he's just making it up as he goes along, and hoping for the best. There certainly are mixed messages coming from him

Edited March 7, 2025 by Sweep

[Bertie]

Was it ever so obvious.  

“We’re doing well with Russia”.

”I’m finding it easy to deal with Russia”

”I’m finding more difficult to deal with Ukraine”

”I don’t know if Ukraine want to settle”

”They’re bombing the hell out of Ukraine”

(so to help he now stops sharing satellite imagery with Ukraine … no doubt is there that he’s agreed to give Putin free reign?? Gobsmacked if anyone can come on and argue otherwise!!)
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cg70jylp32gt?post=asset%3A68bbe780-2a7c-4106-bd21-73965216a1d0#post

[kent_white]

Bit late - but this made me laugh.