Brand Evatt

[gonzo]

I liked it too haha. A much more informed view than the usual stuff you read or hear.

Enjoyed it with my morning visit on the throne.

[gonzo]

 

 

 

[Mantra]

😂😂 when I posted it and saw how long it had become I thought, no one is gonna read this but it was too late to go back!

Cool graphic @desperado never seen one like that.

I love tactical stuff but the initial point of my post before it became an essay was just to observe that more in-depth tactical instructions have now kind of made flair players and moments even rarer as they’re not a reliable source of goals week to week compared to a system or structure that players can slot into.

In a way that’s a bit sad as players are under much stricter direction than previously meaning they have less freedom to express themselves.

 

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

9 minutes ago, Mantra said:

😂😂 when I posted it and saw how long it had become I thought, no one is gonna read this but it was too late to go back!

Cool graphic @desperado never seen one like that.

I love tactical stuff but the initial point of my post before it became an essay was just to observe that more in-depth tactical instructions have now kind of made flair players and moments even rarer as they’re not a reliable source of goals week to week compared to a system or structure that players can slot into.

In a way that’s a bit sad as players are under much stricter direction than previously meaning they have less freedom to express themselves.

 

There'll never be another Riquelme, that's for sure

[Rizlar]

58 minutes ago, Mantra said:

😂😂 when I posted it and saw how long it had become I thought, no one is gonna read this but it was too late to go back!

Cool graphic @desperado never seen one like that.

I love tactical stuff but the initial point of my post before it became an essay was just to observe that more in-depth tactical instructions have now kind of made flair players and moments even rarer as they’re not a reliable source of goals week to week compared to a system or structure that players can slot into.

In a way that’s a bit sad as players are under much stricter direction than previously meaning they have less freedom to express themselves.

 

It was very informative excellent post 👍

[Tonge moor green jacket]

2 hours ago, Mantra said:

😂😂 when I posted it and saw how long it had become I thought, no one is gonna read this but it was too late to go back!

Cool graphic @desperado never seen one like that.

I love tactical stuff but the initial point of my post before it became an essay was just to observe that more in-depth tactical instructions have now kind of made flair players and moments even rarer as they’re not a reliable source of goals week to week compared to a system or structure that players can slot into.

In a way that’s a bit sad as players are under much stricter direction than previously meaning they have less freedom to express themselves.

 

Was a decent read.

[Alf Hartigan]

Fair play Mantra, in the cold light of day, it's a good post, think I was just off to bed with my last post 

 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Mantra- here's one for you.

Article in the BN about Sheehan playing for Wales. 

One paragraph says he attempted 42 passes with a 100% success rate. Very good.

The paragraph before says he nearly got an assists but a team mate just failed to connect with his cross!

How does that work? Are crosses not counted as passes?

 

[Eddie]

I also thought it was a good read and have thought for a while that data is making football more predictable and boring.

Probably just rose tinted glasses from when I was most into football, but if you watch highlights from games in the 00s, the goals that were scored back then would hardly ever be seen anymore - mainly because managers would go nuts at players for shooting from those places now when it’s statistically beneficial to work the ball into certain areas.

I think we massively struggle with it and are trying to be too clever. I’m sure Evatt has all the data on trying to work the ball to the wings and cut it back etc. but what it won’t take into account is that L1 keepers and defenders aren’t top class / predictable. They have mistakes in them, they’ll fumble a shot, they’ll get in the way of each other in the box and they still hate facing their own goal.

We started the season looking like we were going to be more direct - those first few games, we put crosses in earlier and were looking to have pot shots. I actually thought that Evatt was evolving his style to address the issues of last year, but ever since we actually seem to be getting slower and less direct than even last year.

I’m clinging onto the fact that adding Santos, Maghoma, CMG (possibly) and JDB, alongside getting Dempsey back to full fitness will see us inject a bit of intensity back into how we play.

[radcliffe white]

Some folk like all that fair do

for me it’s L1 football let’s not overcomplicate things 

[Biggish Dave]

Just now, radcliffe white said:

Some folk like all that fair do

for me it’s L1 football let’s not overcomplicate things 

I agree. For all the stats crap, going back to the traditional 4-4-2 with a Steve Thompson & Karl Henry type midfield with a Kevin Davies & Andy Walker type attack with Chandler and Lee on the wings will cause all sorts of problems for teams.

Now, where do we find these players - or do we get a dinosaur manager. Either way, it's L1, it should be simple

[radcliffe white]

9 minutes ago, Biggish Dave said:

I agree. For all the stats crap, going back to the traditional 4-4-2 with a Steve Thompson & Karl Henry type midfield with a Kevin Davies & Andy Walker type attack with Chandler and Lee on the wings will cause all sorts of problems for teams.

Now, where do we find these players - or do we get a dinosaur manager. Either way, it's L1, it should be simple

It’s seems it’s about fitting the model these days and getting athletes in, said plenty of times the teams who’ve left this league previously have had some very traditional type of players 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Just now, radcliffe white said:

It’s seems it’s about fitting the model these days and getting athletes in, said plenty of times the teams who’ve left this league previously have had some very traditional type of players 

It's one of those situations where Evatt's approach may be more useful in a higher league. Would still need to be more flexible though. 

Not beyond the wit of man to see the benefit of having both flair and grit. Evatt does often say it's up to players to find solutions on the pitch, but they're either not of the right calibre, or are uncomfortable, for whatever reason, to doing something a bit different.

Fwiw, I think some are playing within themselves at the moment, for whatever reason.

[Greg_BWFC]

22 minutes ago, radcliffe white said:

Some folk like all that fair do

for me it’s L1 football let’s not overcomplicate things 

Yep, put the other defence in a position to cock up and they will.

As you say, it's L1.

[Johnnyrotten]

4 hours ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Mantra- here's one for you.

Article in the BN about Sheehan playing for Wales. 

One paragraph says he attempted 42 passes with a 100% success rate. Very good.

The paragraph before says he nearly got an assists but a team mate just failed to connect with his cross!

How does that work? Are crosses not counted as passes?

 

That's a good point, but thinking about it they can't count corners/crosses as passes, otherwise nobody would take a corner or cross a ball, because 90% of them are won by defenders.   And of course the new objective of the modern game is to have great stats rather than to try to create or score a goal.  Who's going to have a shot from outside the box when its just going to be a black mark on your record to be scrutinised on Monday morning?

Don't ask me how they define cross from pass accurately, but if they counted our crosses as passes Williams and JDC would have a pass success rate of about 10%, but because they pass it 8 yards to Sheehan or Dempsey, they're probably about 95% and first names on the teamsheet.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Well I think they should be. By all means count them separately, but they should still reflect the overall ability to kick the ball where you want it to go.

[Johnnyrotten]

7 hours ago, Mantra said:

😂😂 when I posted it and saw how long it had become I thought, no one is gonna read this but it was too late to go back!

Cool graphic @desperado never seen one like that.

I love tactical stuff but the initial point of my post before it became an essay was just to observe that more in-depth tactical instructions have now kind of made flair players and moments even rarer as they’re not a reliable source of goals week to week compared to a system or structure that players can slot into.

In a way that’s a bit sad as players are under much stricter direction than previously meaning they have less freedom to express themselves.

 

Good posts Mantra.  

All good informative stuff, and not to down play the significance of tactics, but the bottom line is if you don't have many players that are very good at the productive stuff - quality assists, winning headers in the opposition box, shooting from distance, dribbling around a defender to create a shooting opportunity, etc, you aren't going to score many goals.  Arguably we have lost some that have those abilities, and replaced them with players that are less productive.  I'm not saying they are worse players, but they probably bring more to the table in other areas of the game (maybe pace, short passing, tackling, running, teamwork etc).  Its not obvious what tactics or formations will make this group of players look as productive, offensively, as we got used to over the last couple of seasons (for all we struggled in periods of those seasons too).

[Mantra]

6 hours ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Mantra- here's one for you.

Article in the BN about Sheehan playing for Wales. 

One paragraph says he attempted 42 passes with a 100% success rate. Very good.

The paragraph before says he nearly got an assists but a team mate just failed to connect with his cross!

How does that work? Are crosses not counted as passes?

 

Not sure to be honest - some stats may count passes and crosses as separate. However, it may just be that he crossed it in, someone missed the tap in but it fell to another player on the Wales team, hence 100% accuracy...

[Tonge moor green jacket]

4 minutes ago, Mantra said:

Not sure to be honest - some stats may count passes and crosses as separate. However, it may just be that he crossed it in, someone missed the tap in but it fell to another player on the Wales team, hence 100% accuracy...

Aye, possible.

Suppose it shows the vagaries that stats can offer, as well as being of value.

[Mantra]

5 hours ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

It's one of those situations where Evatt's approach may be more useful in a higher league. Would still need to be more flexible though. 

Not beyond the wit of man to see the benefit of having both flair and grit. Evatt does often say it's up to players to find solutions on the pitch, but they're either not of the right calibre, or are uncomfortable, for whatever reason, to doing something a bit different.

Fwiw, I think some are playing within themselves at the moment, for whatever reason.

Pretty sure Evatt said earlier in the season - I think after the Wigan defeat(again paraphrased) -

'we've brought in technical players and those types lack that grit. The players who have grit lack technicality. The ones who have both are in the premier league'.

I think that's a bit of a false dichotomy to be honest. There's no reason why we can't recruit players with more aggression and directness to help give us another dimension. Maybe that was the thinking behind signing big strikers like Bod, Dan and Jerome. Equally there's no reason in my mind that a 'gritty player' can't play within a technical focused team, as long as he's instructed to keep it simple and let the technical players do the mojo.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Mantra

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Aye, quite.

Too simplistic a comment from him, even though we can get the gist.

Not sure it will fill the players with much confidence neither.

[DirtySanchez]

5 hours ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Well I think they should be. By all means count them separately, but they should still reflect the overall ability to kick the ball where you want it to go.

Maybe they did but the person who was supposed to be on the end of it wasn't in the right place 

[Johnnyrotten]

47 minutes ago, DirtySanchez said:

Maybe they did but the person who was supposed to be on the end of it wasn't in the right place 

Exactly.  Or a 20 simple pass is played by Sheehan upto a striker and instead of showing a bit of strength to achieve possession, the centre back nips in front of him and takes it off his toe easily.  Sheehan has done his bit with the accurate pass, but its been turned into an unsuccessful pass by the striker.  The stats are a load of bollocks, without context.  And that's without getting into "shots on target" etc.

[gonzo]

Anyone know what our XG is?

[Rizlar]

Which technical players did he bring in  the last transfer window Dan?