Meanwhile in Ukraine

[Manchester_whites]

58 minutes ago, Winchester White said:

If you go and mooch round Kharkov and ask the locals if they want to be part of Russia you might not be quite to sure of that 'split'. Just because someone speaks Russian doesn't mean they don't want to remain Ukrainian.

Zelenskys first language is Russian. 

[athywhite1958]

1 hour ago, royal white said:

But does he then lose the support of Europe? 

Not a clue mate, it's a really complex situation, so difficult to have all on side, an ideal situation (for me) would be for all Europe and the Yanks get together and obliterate Russia

[London Wanderer]

2 hours ago, wanderer1984 said:

Oh and for the record it's what I thought would happen before a shot was fired and before Trump got involved. Some others suggest the same. No one on here ever said it was the right outcome though 👍🏻

It’s not the right outcome.

All there is to it really.

 They’re a sovereign nation & the evidence points to the vast majority in the East wanting to remain part of Ukraine. Putin didn’t expect that.

If we start appeasing dictators & offering them stolen land, then we’re only making the world more dangerous.

 

[royal white]

28 minutes ago, London Wanderer said:

It’s not the right outcome.

All there is to it really.

 They’re a sovereign nation & the evidence points to the vast majority in the East wanting to remain part of Ukraine. Putin didn’t expect that.

If we start appeasing dictators & offering them stolen land, then we’re only making the world more dangerous.

 

What’s made you change your mind? It was only a few weeks back you was in agreement with russia keeping some land

[wanderer1984]

34 minutes ago, London Wanderer said:

It’s not the right outcome.

And for the billionth time ... I've never said it was

[Spider]

16 minutes ago, wanderer1984 said:

And for the billionth time ... I've never said it was

So what is?

[BobyBrno]

7 minutes ago, Spider said:

So what is?

The right outcome is for Russia to be pushed back to where they were prior to the 2014 invasion of Crimea. It ain’t going to happen unfortunately. There isn’t the will in either the US or Europe to take the Russians on. It’s wrong, totally wrong but I can’t see anyway that the outcome that I and I’m guessing everyone on here wants is ever going to happen. 

[Spider]

Just now, BobyBrno said:

The right outcome is for Russia to be pushed back to where they were prior to the 2014 invasion of Crimea. It ain’t going to happen unfortunately. There isn’t the will in either the US or Europe to take the Russians on. It’s wrong, totally wrong but I can’t see anyway that the outcome that I and I’m guessing everyone on here wants is ever going to happen. 

You’re likely correct.

I just fucking hate the thought that Putin will win and somehow, somefuckinghow, Trump and his scruffy followers will claim it as a victory.

Giving Russia what’s they’ve taken isn’t a “victory” and only a fucking idiot and his followers would claim it as such

[gonzo]

33 minutes ago, BobyBrno said:

The right outcome is for Russia to be pushed back to where they were prior to the 2014 invasion of Crimea. It ain’t going to happen unfortunately. There isn’t the will in either the US or Europe to take the Russians on. It’s wrong, totally wrong but I can’t see anyway that the outcome that I and I’m guessing everyone on here wants is ever going to happen. 

Correct.

Thunk most are resigned to this, including probably Zelensky.

It shouldn't be celebrated. This isn't a win for anyone other than Russia and anyone praising Trump for instigating appeasement of a warlord dictator is wrong imo.

Anyone could've done what Trumps done. Others just had more backbone and bollocks.

Trumps just taken the ball and gone home.

[royal white]

9 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Correct.

Thunk most are resigned to this, including probably Zelensky.

It shouldn't be celebrated. This isn't a win for anyone other than Russia and anyone praising Trump for instigating appeasement of a warlord dictator is wrong imo.

Anyone could've done what Trumps done. Others just had more backbone and bollocks.

Trumps just taken the ball and gone home.

So VZ is turning down dozens of countries who are willing to help him to side with a dictator who’s only in it for himself? like you said earlier I suppose he is a coward 🤷🏻

 

As for “anyone could have done what Trumps done” what exactly is it he’s done so far and why didn’t others do this months ago? 

[Sweep]

1 minute ago, royal white said:

So VZ is turning down dozens of countries who are willing to help him to side with a dictator who’s only in it for himself? like you said earlier I suppose he is a coward 🤷🏻

 

As for “anyone could have done what Trumps done” what exactly is it he’s done so far and why didn’t others do this months ago? 

I'm not sure he's actually done anything other than make a bit of noise has he? I'm not sure "peace" is actually any nearer now, than it was before he took office. 

 

[gonzo]

5 minutes ago, royal white said:

So VZ is turning down dozens of countries who are willing to help him to side with a dictator who’s only in it for himself? like you said earlier I suppose he is a coward 🤷🏻

 

As for “anyone could have done what Trumps done” what exactly is it he’s done so far and why didn’t others do this months ago? 

He's pulled funding from Ukraines defence efforts, stopped intelligence, sided with Putin, made a show of one sides leader and pretty much forced one side into accepting being invaded, having it's people murdered and giving masses of land.

VZ has no option but to do what Trump wants him to do. 

[royal white]

1 minute ago, gonzo said:

He's pulled funding from Ukraines defence efforts, stopped intelligence, sided with Putin, made a show of one sides leader and pretty much forced one side into accepting being invaded, having it's people murdered and giving masses of land.

VZ has no option but to do what Trump wants him to do. 

Utter bollocks. Why is he wasting his time having meetings with the rest of Europe then? 

[gonzo]

9 minutes ago, royal white said:

Utter bollocks. Why is he wasting his time having meetings with the rest of Europe then? 

Dunno you said he was happy to go with Trumps ceasefire. 

Why is he meeting rest of Europe then?

[royal white]

2 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Dunno you said he was happy to go with Trumps ceasefire. 

Why is he meeting rest of Europe then?

I’m guessing no one else has tried to bring in a cease fire. Weird that considering anyone could have done it 🤷🏻

 

 

[gonzo]

2 minutes ago, royal white said:

I’m guessing no one else has tried to bring in a cease fire. Weird that considering anyone could have done it 🤷🏻

 

 

Biden couldve said to Ukraine we are pulling funding so accept your fate at any given point.

[royal white]

4 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Biden couldve said to Ukraine we are pulling funding so accept your fate at any given point.

Biden could have also pressed for a cease fire. As could have the rest of Europe.

 

Whats their fate? 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

41 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Correct.

Thunk most are resigned to this, including probably Zelensky.

It shouldn't be celebrated. This isn't a win for anyone other than Russia and anyone praising Trump for instigating appeasement of a warlord dictator is wrong imo.

Anyone could've done what Trumps done. Others just had more backbone and bollocks.

Trumps just taken the ball and gone home.

I don't think anyone could have, largely because they won't.

The US and Europe held emergency discussions before it all kicked off, but to no avail. 

If Trump hadn't tried, I do wonder where it all would have ended.

Either the west goes all in, and supplies enough material for Ukraine to win, or it grinds on until the west gets fed up, and Russia gets what it wants, and maybe more than it has now. 

Personally, I'd have liked the former, but it was never going to happen; neither from an economic nor a political point of view.

If it's the latter, then maybe the potential outcome on the table now, is the lesser of two evils.

As much as I can't stand Trump, maybe a cessation, negotiation and ongoing plan may be for the best.

Get Ukraine more integrated into the west, and look to enter into discussions with Russia post Putin, for a return of land.

[gonzo]

15 minutes ago, royal white said:

Biden could have also pressed for a cease fire. As could have the rest of Europe.

 

Whats their fate? 

Pressed for a ceasefire =appeasement/giving up.

Their fate? Being invaded, having people murdered then having to give in because their biggest backer is pulling out.

 

[kent_white]

It was a war of attrition - and largely about who would capitulate first. The West or the Ruskies. 

And it looks like we're doing the capitulating. 

Chalk this up as a lost war. Even if it was a proxy one. 

[royal white]

5 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Pressed for a ceasefire =appeasement/giving up.

Their fate? Being invaded, having people murdered then having to give in because their biggest backer is pulling out.

 

That’s been going on for the last 3 years mate. Do you not think now is a good time for Europe to show that it can stand on its own instead of relying on a country 1000s of miles away who are trillions in debt? 
 

Not sure how pressing for a ceasefire is giving up. 

[wanderer1984]

1 hour ago, BobyBrno said:

The right outcome is for Russia to be pushed back to where they were prior to the 2014 invasion of Crimea. It ain’t going to happen unfortunately. There isn’t the will in either the US or Europe to take the Russians on. It’s wrong, totally wrong but I can’t see anyway that the outcome that I and I’m guessing everyone on here wants is ever going to happen. 

Exactly mate. Not sure what folk on here realistically think the end goal is. Keep the war going ... more killed? Or ceasefire and further talks about hopefully ending it.

Some on here are obsessed with Trump and its not the ones that apparently love him.

[wanderer1984]

1 hour ago, Spider said:

somefuckinghow, Trump and his scruffy followers will claim it as a victory.

That's all you really care about isn't it? 

[kent_white]

6 minutes ago, wanderer1984 said:

Exactly mate. Not sure what folk on here realistically think the end goal is. Keep the war going ... more killed? Or ceasefire and further talks about hopefully ending it.

Some on here are obsessed with Trump and its not the ones that apparently love him.

The end goal is the same as it always was. Hold Russia as much as possible, be patient and wait for the Russian economy to start to crumble. 

Which seemed to be working. But it's unlikely we'll ever find out whether the strategy we'd all agreed on for the past couple of years would have borne fruit now. 

[Tonge moor green jacket]

1 hour ago, kent_white said:

The end goal is the same as it always was. Hold Russia as much as possible, be patient and wait for the Russian economy to start to crumble. 

Which seemed to be working. But it's unlikely we'll ever find out whether the strategy we'd all agreed on for the past couple of years would have borne fruit now. 

It is working, but with a couple of caveats.

Russia is still flogging oil etc to China, as well as some illicit stuff in unregistered vessels. Helps with funding the war effort.

Being in a war-time economy, Putin can put the people through the wringer, with little or no kick-back.