Conceding First

[Mantra]

Think I saw on Twitter we’ve conceded first in 7/9 of our League games and where we’ve not conceded first we’ve kept a clean sheet.

Seems to be a recurring problem we’re having and seen the finger pointed at both the midfield and defence - calls for Baptiste to come back in for Johnston as well as calls for Lee or Thomason to replace one of our number 8s, probably Sarcevic.

Despite our habit of grinding out 1-0s last season Evatt has definitely the attributes of a gung ho manager having been the captain under Ian Holloway at Blackpool where the attitude was, if you score one, we’ll score two.

I think another factor is the level of teams we’ve played so far has been quite high relative to the division.

If I was to change anything I think I’d rather us play 4-2-3-1 over the 4-3-3 and have someone helping MJ give solidity to the midfield, because we clearly have enough creativity going forwards. I like George Johnston and he needs game time to continue developing so I wouldn’t be in favour of Baptiste starting over him. I think once we start playing some “easier” teams, the 4-3-3 will be perfect but perhaps just been a bit too open so far this season? Having said all that I think a lot of the goals we’ve conceded this season have been avoidable and not necessarily a fault of the formation. But we need to start games better and stop conceding first and perhaps a more pragmatic system would help that

Edited September 27, 2021 by Mantra

[Traf]

If we're dropping players, Johnston wouldn't be one of them surely?

[Tonge moor green jacket]

Absolutely not.

[Traf]

Best back 4 is Jones/Santos/Johnston/John
We're weak on backups, though, when Baps is the best alternative.
I don't know enough about Aimson, granted, but I'm not sold on the prospects of Brockbank & Gordon

[Mantra]

Does seem like a fair amount of our goals have come from the flanks, take Sunderland, Isgrove got out muscled, then it was cut back across our 6 yard box and was missed by Santos, Johnston and mix of Gordon and Dapo didn’t have the far post covered. 
Also happened against Ipswich where a cut back after an attacker getting to the byline caused us problems. 
 

when we attack though we’ve struggled to pick that final pass in the box and that has been frustrating.

Fair amount of complaints about our lack of scoring, from myself included but i feel it wouldn’t be an issue if we kept it tight at the back and so weren’t under further pressure to try and score 

[Biggish Dave]

Santos had probably his best game of the season on Saturday and Johnston is starting to develop an understanding with him too. We aren't there yet but it is getting better.

Jones & Gordon are not the best at defending, John is 100% sure to come back into the team tomorrow night. I don't think the midfield give the defence enough protection at times but i'm enjoying the football so will take the rough with the smooth for now. We are playing decent enough football to win enough games while Evatt waits for transfer windows to make little tweaks.

[JimmyRiddle]

I think we missing a bit of long range passing since Thomason out of the team tbh.

So if we went 4 2 3 1 I feel he would be better ratting around with MJ but then with the ability to pick a pass when the game is stretched. 

[Zico]

1 hour ago, Traf said:

Best back 4 is Jones/Santos/Johnston/John

aye

I think it's Lee in the midfield, or not, that's the "issue"

[Ani]

Gordon looks a miles better player than last season but 2 or 3 times in second half Saturday he tried overly clever balls to Dapo between defenders when a simple ball would have given him a 1 on 1.  John comes in ahead of Gordon for me. 
Jones gets into great positions but delivery is poor.

Other than the shit header when he should probably score Johnston was fine, him and Santos are doing ok. The early goal thing is weird at both Cambridge and Sunderland they came after we seemed to be getting on top a bit. (Although Cambs had only disallowed too) 

At Lincoln we kept it quite tight first half and then opened up a bit more so maybe mentally/tactically something we can work on, but still no panic from me 

[Rudy]

I think when you play a DM who covers so much ground to break down opposition like MJ does you leave yourself a little open through the middle especially if the opposition plays a no.10 in the hole, they will come short, run the channels and try to stretch the play. Because we play so much attacking possession football with Sarc and Sheehan we end up pushing up searching out the wide players and Doyle 

The gap becomes so big between the midfielders and MJ we are left very vulnerable and open. 

Its what is called a stretched triangle

If we’re starting on the front foot like that we push high and are vulnerable to the counter attack which puts our back line on the back foot running back to their own goal which no defender wants to do, the shape goes and we concede soft goals.

Im a cautious football fan so yeah I want to see attacking fast flowing football but we need to be hard to beat not just hard to get the ball off. 
 

The ball needs to stick up top, to keep our shape, Lee & MJ together are really solid and organised. But we will sacrifice our attacking options if we went with them two. 
 

Then there’s the mentality side. Being mentally stronger than the opposition to not go behind. 
 

It’s not just a question of the back 4 defending well everyone needs to

Edited September 27, 2021 by Rudy

[HomerJay]

5 hours ago, Mantra said:

Think I saw on Twitter we’ve conceded first in 7/9 of our League games and where we’ve not conceded first we’ve kept a clean sheet.

Seems to be a recurring problem we’re having and seen the finger pointed at both the midfield and defence - calls for Baptiste to come back in for Johnston as well as calls for Lee or Thomason to replace one of our number 8s, probably Sarcevic.

Despite our habit of grinding out 1-0s last season Evatt has definitely the attributes of a gung ho manager having been the captain under Ian Holloway at Blackpool where the attitude was, if you score one, we’ll score two.

I think another factor is the level of teams we’ve played so far has been quite high relative to the division.

If I was to change anything I think I’d rather us play 4-2-3-1 over the 4-3-3 and have someone helping MJ give solidity to the midfield, because we clearly have enough creativity going forwards. I like George Johnston and he needs game time to continue developing so I wouldn’t be in favour of Baptiste starting over him. I think once we start playing some “easier” teams, the 4-3-3 will be perfect but perhaps just been a bit too open so far this season? Having said all that I think a lot of the goals we’ve conceded this season have been avoidable and not necessarily a fault of the formation. But we need to start games better and stop conceding first and perhaps a more pragmatic system would help that

Wrong.

 

Next.

[Johnnyrotten]

5 hours ago, Mantra said:

 

I think another factor is the level of teams we’ve played so far has been quite high relative to the division.

 

Current average position of teams we've played at home is 10.7, so yes just above half way.  Home games tougher than away, on paper.

That changes this week with playing two teams in the current bottom 5, so we can no longer use the fixture list as a factor.

It feels like the honeymoon/free hits period is coming to an end, these games count now, if we can stay in the top half this week its a great start.

[RONNIE PHILLIPS]

3 hours ago, Rudy said:

I think when you play a DM who covers so much ground to break down opposition like MJ does you leave yourself a little open through the middle especially if the opposition plays a no.10 in the hole, they will come short, run the channels and try to stretch the play. Because we play so much attacking possession football with Sarc and Sheehan we end up pushing up searching out the wide players and Doyle 

The gap becomes so big between the midfielders and MJ we are left very vulnerable and open. 

Its what is called a stretched triangle

If we’re starting on the front foot like that we push high and are vulnerable to the counter attack which puts our back line on the back foot running back to their own goal which no defender wants to do, the shape goes and we concede soft goals.

Im a cautious football fan so yeah I want to see attacking fast flowing football but we need to be hard to beat not just hard to get the ball off. 
 

The ball needs to stick up top, to keep our shape, Lee & MJ together are really solid and organised. But we will sacrifice our attacking options if we went with them two. 
 

Then there’s the mentality side. Being mentally stronger than the opposition to not go behind. 
 

It’s not just a question of the back 4 defending well everyone needs to

At the risk of sounding like I'm on a loop I reckon Thomason with MJ might offer more than Lee. Lee is  good technically & tidy but Thomason is more mobile & looks to play more incisive passes. It could also free Sheehan up & cover his defensive frailties. 

[Ros Coe]

I’d drop Sarc..

                    Dixon

Jones   Santos   Johnstone   John

          Williams     Lee

     Chunga   Sheehan   Dapo 

                    Doyle

 

[Horwich]

Thomason is shite and it seems like IE finally agrees.

Has he even been on the pitch in a league game yet?

[Casino]

I dont agree that he's shite but I dont see how he can be suggested as better than Lee

It defies belief, if I'm honest

[Rudy]

7 hours ago, RONNIE PHILLIPS said:

At the risk of sounding like I'm on a loop I reckon Thomason with MJ might offer more than Lee. Lee is  good technically & tidy but Thomason is more mobile & looks to play more incisive passes. It could also free Sheehan up & cover his defensive frailties. 

Definitely not 

[Steejay]

9 hours ago, RONNIE PHILLIPS said:

At the risk of sounding like I'm on a loop I reckon Thomason with MJ might offer more than Lee. Lee is  good technically & tidy but Thomason is more mobile & looks to play more incisive passes. It could also free Sheehan up & cover his defensive frailties. 

Kinell, Ronnie, you usually talk sense...😉

[captainmed]

IMO you cannot justify conceding first in 7 out of your first 9 games. 

We also haven’t scored in 4 of the last 5 league games. 

2 big games coming up against teams at the bottom. 

We need at the very least 4 points before the harder games start again.

SW, Wigan, Plymouth & Pompey are all tough. 

After 15 games we will have a fair idea of where we truly are….

Playing well and not winning is wearing thin and we need a scabby 1-0 where we grind it out. 

Edited September 28, 2021 by captainmed

[RONNIE PHILLIPS]

4 hours ago, Steejay said:

Kinell, Ronnie, you usually talk sense...😉

We all have our weak spots 🤣, I just think Lee flatters to deceive most of the time. Maybe I'm just longing for a Mcateer type who would break the lines & run beyond Doyle when he drops deep. At the moment we can pass teams to death but once we get it out wide & put a decent cross if it doesn't hit Doyle there's no one else attacking it. We look at our most dangerous when Dapo comes inside & commits defenders. 

[Rudy]

5 minutes ago, RONNIE PHILLIPS said:

We all have our weak spots 🤣, I just think Lee flatters to deceive most of the time. Maybe I'm just longing for a Mcateer type who would break the lines & run beyond Doyle when he drops deep. At the moment we can pass teams to death but once we get it out wide & put a decent cross if it doesn't hit Doyle there's no one else attacking it. We look at our most dangerous when Dapo comes inside & commits defenders. 

You been knocking about with @JimmyRiddle?

[Steejay]

17 minutes ago, RONNIE PHILLIPS said:

We all have our weak spots 🤣, I just think Lee flatters to deceive most of the time. Maybe I'm just longing for a Mcateer type who would break the lines & run beyond Doyle when he drops deep. At the moment we can pass teams to death but once we get it out wide & put a decent cross if it doesn't hit Doyle there's no one else attacking it. We look at our most dangerous when Dapo comes inside & commits defenders. 

Yep, I know where you're coming from but if the 'goal' against Burton had counted, then that shows what Lee is capable of.

His ball retention is really good & although he's not an explosive type of player, he can rat about a bit to support MJ.

He scored some great goals for Wednesday & I still think that he's one that would be capable of managing a league above.

[Anderson]

Even in the league below I didn't really see the hype about Thomason. 

He's okay on the ball but positionally poor, weak in challenges often and some of the more long range stuff that he (admittedly has an eye for) attempts often fall short of their target either being intercepted or leaving his teammate in tight spaces. 

He's a young enough player and his obviously understanding of the technical side of the game is encouraging but, much like Brockbank, we need much better in the squad if we're hoping for sustained success at this level and higher.

[Lostock Whites]

Its a problem. I think the focus should be to really impose and implement our philosophy from the 1st second, dominating possession, high pressing. I've looked at data, and it shows that in most games we are dominating possession, but much more intensely in the 2nd half.

 

We are essentially making it easy for our opponents early on, going a goal behind, then playing catch up in the 2nd half.

 

Sunderland is a perfect example. And 1st half possession was 48%, 2nd half 64%. Rotherham game, 1st half 62%, 2nd half 78%.

 

We just need to get better at what we do best, but from the very 1st minute.

[Tonge moor green jacket]

2 hours ago, RONNIE PHILLIPS said:

We all have our weak spots 🤣, I just think Lee flatters to deceive most of the time. Maybe I'm just longing for a Mcateer type who would break the lines & run beyond Doyle when he drops deep. At the moment we can pass teams to death but once we get it out wide & put a decent cross if it doesn't hit Doyle there's no one else attacking it. We look at our most dangerous when Dapo comes inside & commits defenders. 

I don't disagree. 

I think Lee's experience would provide more defensive cover, and I think he's fine at moving and keeping the passing simple.

Thomason arguably has a broader range of passing.

Iirc, stats tended to bear this out last season, with more chances created with the latter in.

I don't think Lee flatters to deceive, but I also don't think he's the player he once was at SW; when he came we had lots of their fans saying he box to box etc. Not quite achieved cult status here, but then I didn't expect him to be as good as he once was- that's why they let him go.