Football Ventures

[Eddie]

6 minutes ago, masi 51 said:

Doubt there has been a time in our 150 year history where we never bought a player through in that timescale.

Great that they saved the club and Sharon has been a great role model but i hope to god these Swiss backers have got a better business model

By ‘better business model’ what you actually mean is more money that they’re willing to pump into a loss making L1 football club?

There will be no stone left unturned from Sharon with regards to the business model, we’ll be exploring every avenue of how we are more sustainable as a club - it benefits both her and the club to do so.

She’s clearly not going to chuck all of her eggs (cash) into our basket, she’s not daft enough to do so. Most businesses in a market that actually makes financial sense would be borrowing money from banks and other lenders in order to invest and improve the performance, loss making football clubs don’t have that option so she’s instead found willing investors with the acceptance that she dilutes her shareholding. I don’t see the problem in that?

Clearly we need either to produce kids that we can sell on for a tidy profit (easier said than done and needs material investment in the academy in the first place) or we need the whole ‘moneyball’ buy potential low and hope we sell high to start kicking in for the club to stand on its own two feet, but it’s not something you can just assume in a business model because it’s unknown to an extent (you could make an argument that it’s something you can improve, I’d agree with that). I’d put a lot of money on the club now having a 3-5 year forecast / business model which has varying eventualities and supporting financial options for each.

The idea that the ‘Swiss guys’ (aren’t they Nick Luckock’s brother?) would have a better model by chucking more cash at it just puts us back at square one. Bigger losses, more reliant on our owner to pump in cash every year and therefore more likely to go bump and drop down the leagues to start it all again (ring any bells?).

[Leyther_Matt]

1 hour ago, masi 51 said:

No player brought through in the near five seasons running the club. Money invested in the club since.  Government, Swiss  and Fans bond. Obvious they cannot sustain the club much longer and need outside help. Fair play they saved the club but they certainly have no long term plans

I must have imagined us signing a player from the North West Counties and getting a six figure bid for him. 

[Whitesince63]

12 minutes ago, Leyther_Matt said:

I must have imagined us signing a player from the North West Counties and getting a six figure bid for him. 

To be fair we have 3 or 4 at least who we could expect a decent fee for if we sold them like George, Toal, Santos and Dion and even Johnson once he’s fit again. We even reportedly got a potential bid on Victor so there is clearly value in the side and it wouldn’t surprise me if young Will Forrester turned out to be a good one too. It takes time and I personally think we’re doing ok to date. Getting into the Championship is the key which just in itself would raise the value of our players if they do well there.

[Casino]

2 hours ago, masi 51 said:

No player brought through in the near five seasons running the club. Money invested in the club since.  Government, Swiss  and Fans bond. Obvious they cannot sustain the club much longer and need outside help. Fair play they saved the club but they certainly have no long term plans

its not often im lost for words, but bravo

well done

speechless

[gonzo]

1 hour ago, masi 51 said:

Doubt there has been a time in our 150 year history where we never bought a player through in that timescale.

Great that they saved the club and Sharon has been a great role model but i hope to god these Swiss backers have got a better business model

It's never been any different.

Since Alan Stubbs and McAteer I think we've produced Clough and Holding for any kind of decent profit.

 

[Mounts Kipper]

8 minutes ago, Casino said:

its not often im lost for words, but bravo

well done

speechless

He probably one of those that thought Anderson was the saviour, we’ve some strange fans. 

[FrancisFogarty]

2 hours ago, SatanGreavsie said:

Love it😃 I could see him taking the parcel out, putting it back, taking it out, putting it back, taking it out, putting it back - then clodding it over the fence.

And pointing at next door.

[masi 51]

4 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

He probably one of those that thought Anderson was the saviour, we’ve some strange fans. 

No i was one of those that knew about Anderson from Southampton and said so at the time

Just because i dont conform to your sheep herd mentality does not mean i am wrong

Edited March 25 by masi 51

[masi 51]

47 minutes ago, Whitesince63 said:

To be fair we have 3 or 4 at least who we could expect a decent fee for if we sold them like George, Toal, Santos and Dion and even Johnson once he’s fit again. We even reportedly got a potential bid on Victor so there is clearly value in the side and it wouldn’t surprise me if young Will Forrester turned out to be a good one too. It takes time and I personally think we’re doing ok to date. Getting into the Championship is the key which just in itself would raise the value of our players if they do well there.

I 100%  agree on what you are saying and yes i think we can make decent profit on players we have signed. The one part of Markham/Evatt/FV have excelled is signing players close or at the end of their contract.

[Mounts Kipper]

9 minutes ago, masi 51 said:

No i was one of those that knew about Anderson from Southampton and said so at the time

Just because i dont conform to your sheep herd mentality does not mean i am wrong

It’s doesn’t mean you’re wrong, however, from all available evidence you can see there is a plan, the ground, infrastructure and squad are all in much better shape than when FV arrived. If you’ve something negative to say, back it up with hard facts.

[masi 51]

29 minutes ago, Mounts Kipper said:

It’s doesn’t mean you’re wrong, however, from all available evidence you can see there is a plan, the ground, infrastructure and squad are all in much better shape than when FV arrived. If you’ve something negative to say, back it up with hard facts.

I am in no way having a go at FV and if they sell up i hope they go with a great big profit and a eternal gratitude and warm welcome back anytime they return.

Anyone who bought us out at that time would leave us in a better state could we have sunk any lower.

The plan was a three year plan on getting us to the championship and then they would re-evaluate..They have got us to the brink of the Championship  but the club has now got Debt despite having 20m plus pumped into the club by outside sources ie Government, Swiss investors and the fans Bond scheme. I said no player has been brought through.....Yes the can be a strong case for Thomason. The infrastructure has not been Addressed ie the roof and the training ground at Lostock. Everyone has bought in to the re-growth of the club and that has helped.

We have a home average of 20k despite us all knowing that is false. The naming rights of the ground we was told would leave no stone unturned. Toughsheet three miles from the stadium was chosen and yes again can not have a go at Toughsheet........Great backers and supporters of the team. A interesting six weeks coming up and lets see where we are come the summer

[Casino]

2 minutes ago, masi 51 said:

 

We have a home average of 20k despite us all knowing that is false. 

it isn't false for the purposes of this discussion

thats how many tickets have been sold

 

[Steejay]

1 hour ago, Leyther_Matt said:

I must have imagined us signing a player from the North West Counties and getting a six figure bid for him. 

Seven figure bid mate, let’s not undersell him. 😉

[Tonge moor green jacket]

1 hour ago, masi 51 said:

No i was one of those that knew about Anderson from Southampton and said so at the time

Just because i dont conform to your sheep herd mentality does not mean i am wrong

To be right, you'd need to produce evidence.

However you have no evidence as to what the exact aim of the Swiss investors are.

We do have evidence that FV have done what they said they would (despite being battered by covid). Grown the club, improved the relationship with fans and wider football community, put the club on a better financial footing.

We could have sold Thomason which would have helped financially, but then again perhaps the crowds wouldn't have been the same with a perceived need to sell.

Then they took a gamble with Collins.

That is evidence of the plan in action.

There is no plan that will guarantee both promotion and profit, but suggestions there is no business plan is for the birds.

[DazBob]

A herd of sheep??

[Wanderlust]

We need detail before we can discuss it properly.

Our biggest assets are by far and away the stadium and hotel etc so for accounting purposes, we can easily apply light or punitive depreciation/amortization on assets as they age, or conversely pump up the valuation of the land. Trading P and L can be flexed in time dependent on agreements and overall we can create whatever financial scenario we wish within a fairly broad range of acceptability. Ultimately it means jack shit unless the losses are huge.

What does matter for the sustainability of the club is success - to bolster TV income, attract higher payments from the FA, expand our fan base if it's not already reached capacity given our catchment area, and produce an attractive proposition for investors. The other income side stuff - working the assets with events and concerts, maximising matchday income, selling merch and media subscriptions and business diversification - FV are already making a decent fist of. All this has to happen with a tight grip on expenditure, especially wages. Producing superstars from the youth set up can't be depended on as the best youth prospects are signed up by Premiership clubs as soon as they're out of nappies and put through the filter - but if we get one reject that comes good like George Thomason every few years it will pay for itself. The youth/B team set up is like buying a lottery ticket and you never know if the next Bellingham brothers will walk through the door, unlikely as that is - but it only needs the occasional win to break even.

If we can get to the Championship we have a better chance of finding a sustainable model, doing just enough to keep us there - in the shop window. FV's community engagement, working the venue, messaging and partnering have gone a long way towards changing the external perception of the club (not quite rebranding) so it appears they're doing a decent job with relatively limited resources in the scheme of things. But we just don't really know do we?

[Casino]

2 minutes ago, Wanderlust said:

Our biggest assets are by far and away the stadium and hotel

just to try to understand why you say that, what are they worth?

[Tonge moor green jacket]

1 minute ago, Casino said:

just to try to understand why you say that, what are they worth?

Interesting question that.

Comment in the BN about the rusting train on Tesco roundabout leading into the biggest retail park in the UK.

Surprised me that did, but it was offered as a quote.

Taking it at face value, you would imagine that the land that the ground occupies is worth a pretty penny, let alone the buildings.

[Casino]

2 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

 

Taking it at face value, you would imagine that the land that the ground occupies is worth a pretty penny, let alone the buildings.

i suppose it depends

the ground is worth much more to bwfc than anybody else

if youre buying it to drop it, lord knows what that would cost

the hotel isnt so desirable surrounded by a decaying football ground

 

supose my point is that, i think, the players are probably the biggest asset

that def wasnt the case when FV walked in

[MickyD]

Pointless having an asset you can’t use as security. The Supporters Trust put measures in place to prevent Ken Anderson cashing in didn’t they?

[Eddie]

1 minute ago, masi 51 said:

I am in no way having a go at FV and if they sell up i hope they go with a great big profit and a eternal gratitude and warm welcome back anytime they return.

Anyone who bought us out at that time would leave us in a better state could we have sunk any lower.

The plan was a three year plan on getting us to the championship and then they would re-evaluate..They have got us to the brink of the Championship  but the club has now got Debt despite having 20m plus pumped into the club by outside sources ie Government, Swiss investors and the fans Bond scheme. I said no player has been brought through.....Yes the can be a strong case for Thomason. The infrastructure has not been Addressed ie the roof and the training ground at Lostock. Everyone has bought in to the re-growth of the club and that has helped.

We have a home average of 20k despite us all knowing that is false. The naming rights of the ground we was told would leave no stone unturned. Toughsheet three miles from the stadium was chosen and yes again can not have a go at Toughsheet........Great backers and supporters of the team. A interesting six weeks coming up and lets see where we are come the summer

To be fair Masi, I do see your point in terms of it looking like we’re working through every source of funding, which in some cases could look worrying (and certainly would have done under the old ownership).

When you take each in turn though I think they all make sense, and again this is against the backdrop that the alternative is Sharon’s own cash which she quite rightly just won’t do:

Gov’t - pay us back £[5]m or we’ll accept 8% of your business instead. It valued us at about £60m from memory, which is mental (and shows how uncommercial our government is). I don’t expect the original plan was to have the gov’t as shareholders but when someone offers you at 2 or 3 times the true value of something then you’d be crazy to turn it down.

Fan bond - normal borrowing routes are closed, and even if you could find someone willing to lend us £4-5m then they’d be charging 15-20% interest due to the risk. The bond is a way to borrow money, which can be invested into the club to improve it (as all businesses do) when more conventional routes aren’t available. It’s also a way to reduce the cost of that debt by playing on supporters’ goodwill. Again, it makes financial sense to do so and supporters are happy because they’re getting more than they would if the cash was in the bank (albeit more risk) and helping the club.

Swiss investors - mentioned it before but if you’re happy to dilute your own shareholding then why not accept outside investment if it’s on terms you’re happy with?

Other points - naming rights. Finding a fan who has an emotional attachment is probably your most lucrative deal worldwide. No matter how big a company is, the market value of sponsoring a league 1 stadium is exactly that, market rate. If you have a fan that can afford market rate, but is also happy to pump more money into the club because of the emotional aspect, then you’re probably going to get more than if you got Coca Cola or Amazon to sponsor it.

No issue with you having a different view on the ownership by the way, nobody should have to agree just because the majority do and it’s actually good to have a level of scepticism and scrutiny to keep everyone honest. I’m just pointing out a few areas from a strictly financial perspective which I don’t see why they would do it any other way.

[gonzo]

3 minutes ago, MickyD said:

Pointless having an asset you can’t use as security. The Supporters Trust put measures in place to prevent Ken Anderson cashing in didn’t they?

Not worth the paper it's written on.

Unless we are all going to chip in if it ever goes up for sale.

 

[gonzo]

One minute folk are happy we have owners who are trying to make us sustainable and live within our means the next this model isn't good enough and clearly don't have a pot to piss in.

Can tell its international week

[Casino]

14 minutes ago, gonzo said:

Not worth the paper it's written on.

Unless we are all going to chip in if it ever goes up for sale.

 

true

all it does is gives the ST 6 months to make an offer

even then, the sellers could refuse it!

[FrancisFogarty]

41 minutes ago, DazBob said:

A herd of sheep??

Baaah, humbug.