Politics

[Tonge moor green jacket]

2 hours ago, Lt. Aldo Raine said:

The quote was “A referendum has never had a place in our democratic process”. It's unquestionable that they have, though it's arguable whether they should in a parliamentary democracy. But that might be for another thread.

An interesting philosophical point arises here. Ukip was on the rise, and threatening the political norms.

In order to defeat it, parties had to change and adopt some of ukip's policies, carry on and best them via normal party politics, or use a referendum to let people show their feelings.

Using a referendum, was perhaps an easy way out- a quick fix, which backfired.

The point then, getting rid of referendums, leaves only traditional politics.

None of the parties were showing any sign of slowing ukip's growth, and who knows, we could, by now have ended up with ukip seats. Upsetting the usual landscape of red, blue and a little yellow.

Yet, perversely, we almost certainly wouldn't be leaving the EU. Yet.

[paulhanley]

56 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

An interesting philosophical point arises here. Ukip was on the rise, and threatening the political norms.

In order to defeat it, parties had to change and adopt some of ukip's policies, carry on and best them via normal party politics, or use a referendum to let people show their feelings.

Using a referendum, was perhaps an easy way out- a quick fix, which backfired.

The point then, getting rid of referendums, leaves only traditional politics.

None of the parties were showing any sign of slowing ukip's growth, and who knows, we could, by now have ended up with ukip seats. Upsetting the usual landscape of red, blue and a little yellow.

Yet, perversely, we almost certainly wouldn't be leaving the EU. Yet.

Those arguing against Cameron's decision to hold a referendum conveniently airbrush the rise of UKIP. There was a clear and growing wish for independence from the EU manifested through UKIPs percentage vote at all variety of elections. Cameron won the 2015 election by offering an in/out referendum. He fell short in 2010 having failed to offer that. The chain of events is clear and eventually the growing tide of EU-scepticism made its impression. The extent of the numbers of people who had become deeply sceptical about the EU came as a shock to complacent EU lovers and they are still reeling from it. They'd rather it had all never happened. They'd rather people who disagree them didn't have a voice. It did. They do. They continue to do so. They have to learn to live with it and respect it - but they are showing absolutely no signs of doing so.

And by the way - nobody seemed to notice in 2010 and 2015 that UKIP were hurting Labour as well as the Conservatives. It will happen again with both the Brexit Party and the Conservative Party about to gain huge traction in normally Labour voting seats. This is all the handiwork of the University educated liberals and their hectoring. This is what you did, liberals. You're in a democracy denying pit of your own making. When you're in a hole, stop digging. But you won't, will you.

Edited October 27, 2019 by paulhanley

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, paulhanley said:

Those arguing against Cameron's decision to hold a referendum conveniently airbrush the rise of UKIP. There was a clear and growing wish for independence from the EU manifested through UKIPs percentage vote at all variety of elections. Cameron won the 2015 referendum by offering an in/out referendum. He fell short in 2010 having failed to offer that. The chain of events is clear and eventually the growing tide of EU-scepticism made its impression. The extent of the numbers of people who had become deeply sceptical about the EU came as a shock to complacent EU lovers and they are still reeling from it. They'd rather it had all never happened. They'd rather people who disagree them didn't have a voice. It did. They do. They continue to do so. They have to learn to live with it and respect it - but they are showing absolutely no signs of doing so.

And by the way - nobody seemed to notice in 2010 and 2015 that UKIP were hurting Labour as well as the Conservatives. It will happen again with both the Brexit Party and the Conservative Party about to gain huge traction in normally Labour voting seats. This is all the handiwork of the University educated liberals and their hectoring. This is what you did, liberals. You're in a democracy denying pit of your own making. When you're in a hole, stop digging. But you won't, will you.

Paul; they are too smug, too entitled to even understand that they are in a hole.

And, even they did, it would be somone else's doing.

[frank_spencer]

9 minutes ago, boltondiver said:

Paul; they are too smug, too entitled to even understand that they are in a hole.

And, even they did, it would be somone else's doing.

Bit like the shit show the government have made of brexit since the vote?

The fact it's a mess isn't their fault it's the fault of those pesky remainers for not making them be competent negotiators and getting a deal suitable to both middle of the road MPs or hard line brexiteers.

[paulhanley]

17 minutes ago, boltondiver said:

Paul; they are too smug, too entitled to even understand that they are in a hole.

And, even they did, it would be somone else's doing.

I know it very well. That means a few more blows to their collective solar plexus are on the way. Get the popcorn out.

[mickbrown]

Paulo lad, you do realise these blokes you think aren’t ‘elites’ (the privately educated multimillionaires Boris, JRM, Nige etc) wouldn’t piss on you if you were on fire don’t you?

[Salford Trotter]

53 minutes ago, paulhanley said:

I know it very well. That means a few more blows to their collective solar plexus are on the way. Get the popcorn out.

You're one today mate😂

 

[Sweep]

1 hour ago, paulhanley said:

I know it very well. That means a few more blows to their collective solar plexus are on the way. Get the popcorn out.

I'm sure most people aren't half as bothered as you seem to be mate, perhaps you're taking it all a bit too personally.

[Ani]

2 hours ago, paulhanley said:

Those arguing against Cameron's decision to hold a referendum conveniently airbrush the rise of UKIP. There was a clear and growing wish for independence from the EU manifested through UKIPs percentage vote at all variety of elections. Cameron won the 2015 election by offering an in/out referendum. He fell short in 2010 having failed to offer that. The chain of events is clear and eventually the growing tide of EU-scepticism made its impression. The extent of the numbers of people who had become deeply sceptical about the EU came as a shock to complacent EU lovers and they are still reeling from it. They'd rather it had all never happened. They'd rather people who disagree them didn't have a voice. It did. They do. They continue to do so. They have to learn to live with it and respect it - but they are showing absolutely no signs of doing so.

And by the way - nobody seemed to notice in 2010 and 2015 that UKIP were hurting Labour as well as the Conservatives. It will happen again with both the Brexit Party and the Conservative Party about to gain huge traction in normally Labour voting seats. This is all the handiwork of the University educated liberals and their hectoring. This is what you did, liberals. You're in a democracy denying pit of your own making. When you're in a hole, stop digging. But you won't, will you.

As I said the debate is simply people from one side chucking insults at the other and you have just done that. 

 

Where on the ballot paper or in the campaign did it say that if you lose this vote you also the right to question how the final outcome looks ?

The fact that people are accepting the likes of JRM Boris and mates from the ERG running the country rightly worries people. 
 

Boris wants a GE now so it is a one issue election. Surely we elect a government on more than that ? 

[Moon boy]

16 minutes ago, Sweep said:

I'm sure most people aren't half as bothered as you seem to be mate, perhaps you're taking it all a bit too personally.

When people voted in 2016 to be in or out of the European Union the issue was do we want to be in a trading/political arrangement with 27 other Countries.

It was a simple choice, or so we thought, in or out

To the surprise of the political establishment the Majority voted to leave.

The day after the vote people were shocked by the result, families weren’t split, friends were still talking, there were no marches, demonstrations etc

Since that point as you know, the people who we elected to carry out the result of that Referendum have deliberately set out to subvert Democracy, If normal people in this country ‘are’nt half as bothered’ as PH we are definitely in the shit.

To accuse anyone, who voted Leave, that they are ‘taking it a bit too personally’ is arrogant and conceited and says more about you than PH

Do you think the people in Hong Kong and Catalonia are’nt bothered and shouldn’t take it personally 

 

[MalcolmW]

25 minutes ago, Ani said:

 Where on the ballot paper or in the campaign did it say that if you lose this vote you also the right to question how the final outcome looks ?

 Boris wants a GE now so it is a one issue election. Surely we elect a government on more than that ? 

Pre-Cameron, a PM has always been able to call an election at the time of his choosing.

May attempted to make 2017 a single issue election (and guaranteed she would never lead another campaign). Grandad ran rings round her on voter contact, because anyone he meets finds him far nicer than the press indicate. 

If the UK had narrowly voted to leave the 20k extra votes from Gibraltar could have led to us remaining!

 

[Ani]

6 minutes ago, Moon boy said:

When people voted in 2016 to be in or out of the European Union the issue was do we want to be in a trading/political arrangement with 27 other Countries.  Big difference between political and training  if we could keep trade but lose politics think people would have happy

It was a simple choice, or so we thought, in or out  not turned out to be simple  are you arguing that people did not understand it was complicated ?

To the surprise of the political establishment the Majority voted to leave.  Correct  

The day after the vote people were shocked by the result, families weren’t split, friends were still talking, there were no marches, demonstrations etc

Since that point as you know, the people who we elected to carry out the result of that Referendum have deliberately set out to subvert Democracy, If normal people in this country ‘are’nt half as bothered’ as PH we are definitely in the shit. As you have pointed out leaving is not as simple as people thought  the job of HoC is to make sure we leave with best terms . Best terms are not defined by the ERG as much as they think should be  

To accuse anyone, who voted Leave, that they are ‘taking it a bit too personally’ is arrogant and conceited and says more about you than PH  insult time again  

Do you think the people in Hong Kong and Catalonia are’nt bothered and shouldn’t take it personally.  What ? 

 

 

[kent_white]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50202060

[mickbrown]

1 hour ago, kent_white said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50202060

She’s one of them pesky feckers that went to university 

[Ani]

1 hour ago, kent_white said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50202060

Someone being a dick. No one had put money in. Bit of a non story. 

[bolty58]

17 hours ago, leigh white said:

Ha ha, never trust a tory in your life.

 

Mick - it's over mate. Cuba will soon be sparkling and new with its very own Trump resort. Rocket man is fucked and will end up striking a deal with the Trumpinator. The Chinese Communist Party will soon change its name to the Chinese Capitalist Party to more aptly describe its activities.

Your side of politics is fucked mate. Stuck back in the 70's trying to fight a non-existent class war whilst the rest of us have moved on.

Still, you vote for Daisy mate. That red rosette and 4 pails of milk a day makes it all worthwhile.

Edited October 28, 2019 by bolty58

[Guest]

18 hours ago, paulhanley said:

This is being posted for all of those of you on here who: 

* Believe everybody who disagrees with them is a far-right extremist

* Pines for the Blair and Brown years 

* Supports the chicanery going on to attempt to deny Brexit

* Only believes in free speech if the person expressing the opinion believes with them

* Still believes the nonsense that it is the EU that saved Europe from itself

* Believes Brexiteers to be peasants, racists, bigosts and the rest of it.

Perfect, just perfect.

Sunday Telegraph Editorial: October 27

Liberal Reminer elites fear democracy itself

Remainers are running a guerilla war against Brexit: they delayed it last week in Parliament and tomorrow are likely to block an election. If our democratic system is in crisis, the cause is not Brexit, it is the refusal of Remain MPs to accept it. And why won't they? What is so outrageous about Britain leaving the EU that opponents are willing to go to these lengths? Labour's latest, spurious justification for delay is that employment and environmental regulation will be jeopardised when we leave. But Brexit does not abolish such rules, it is just returns decision making to Parliament, rooting law-making once again in democracy and the nation state. It is this very principle of self-government however that so many Remainers reject. 

In a compelling essay published lat week, the philosopher John Gray dissected the psychology of Britain's elite Left-liberals. The issue not liberalism per se and especially not the classical variety: Britain's political tradition is historically liberal in that it favours individualism and debate. But  in recent years, the elites have embraced as dogma a "mishmash of ideas they picked up at University", ideas that they assume are so indisputably true that anyone who disagrees must either be mendacious or stupid. This kind of "liberalism" (in fact, a variant of authoritarianism) does not try to win an argument by persuasion; it enforces its values by diktat. Their tool of choice is Left-wing liberal legalism, imposed by new so-called liberal empires, such as the EU. They use the courts to legislate and to remove as much of the public sphere as possible from the democratic marketplace. Everything is a "right", everything must be decided by technocrats. There is no room left for democracy, dissent or debate. The guardians go unguarded. 

Europe's leaders live in the shadow of the 20th century: they fear the nation state and believe nationalism leads to war. And yet it was not independent, mature democracies that triggered conflict in 1914 and 1939: it was empires and dictatorships. The peace that the EU claims to have delivered since 1945 was thanks to Nato and its development down to capitalism. Human rights are in no way dependent on Brussels. On the contrary, observers of Spain's authoritarian opposition to Catalonian independence must conclude that the EU has provided a cover for holding a nation state together by force, that its liberalism is really a sheepskin on a wolf. The UK by contrast, self-governs by consent. If Scotland ever voted to  leave the rest of the country would regret it but the Scots would be entirely free to go their own way.

The Remainer elite's fear of democracy is motivated by mistrust and snobbery. They worry that if the British people are deprived of elite guidance, they will tend toward fascism. The method of modern liberalism is thus to tie democracy up in a web of legal restrictions, just as Brexit has been frustrated not by the ballot box but by parliamentary tricks and litigation. The goal, wrote Professor Gray, is to "return to a sunlit place where politics is once again under the control of higher-minds". They want to depoliticise politics just as New Labour attempted with its Middle Way - to convince us that there is only one correct path to progress and no serious argument to be had. Any disagreement to use Labour's favourite slur is "far-right". 

Many Left-liberal Remainers think they are cleverer than they are: they can try to delay Brexit for as long as possible, but the cat is out of the bag and there is no forcing the animal back in. The establishment asked voters for their opinion in 2016 and voters gave it. If the remainer elites do not deliver, the people will boot them out.

This is sort of hilarious. Its like an article written by a highly engaged sixth former. 

So much in it to pick on as utter drivel. But the overriding question I'm left with, is, people want to leave the EU and I assume "close the borders". The first part is happening the second is not. not under a Tory neoliberal right wing pro free market government. We might close the EU off but we'll be importing people in from everywhere. So we leave the EU - then what? 

[L/H White]

come jan 31st, how long is the next extension going to be?

[Tonge moor green jacket]

1 minute ago, L/H White said:

come jan 31st, how long is the next extension going to be?

Carry on and there'll be an implementation period of 2 weeks.

[Salford Trotter]

Just now, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Carry on and there'll be an implementation period of 2 weeks.

That'll have to pushed back now surely

[Casino]

So we are not leaving on 31/10?

This cant be true, surely

[Spider]

Has Boris picked his ditch yet?

Because he PWOMISED we’d be out by Friday.

is that the 5th deadline day that’s been horseshit now?

[mickbrown]

8 minutes ago, Spider said:

Has Boris picked his ditch yet?

Because he PWOMISED we’d be out by Friday.

is that the 5th deadline day that’s been horseshit now?

Boris in bullshit shocker. 

Who’d have thought?

[Sweep]

1 hour ago, L/H White said:

come jan 31st, how long is the next extension going to be?

12 months

[Guest]

 

Can you promise the British people you won't ask for a delay "Yes....I'd rather be dead in a ditch". September 5th.

So given he said he'd rather be dead in a ditch - and given the most parliament could do would be drag him through the courts - he chose to ask for one rather easily didn't he? The narrative of being "forced" is a lie. He was instructed to by parliament but he still chose to send the letter. He could have not done. And the alternative would have been much less severe than being dead in a ditch. This is my main issue - any promise Boris makes isn't worth the paper its written on or the air that's used to say it. In fact any promise is almost certainly going to be reversed. 

 

Boris has on his frontbench a number of people who in recent history have expressed desire for Britain being a low tax, low regulation, neoliberal bastion of free market economics. Some of them wrote a book expressing said desire, Raab, Truss et al. We read a leaked document saying they have a way round "rights and regulations". So they are trying to find ways to lower regulations. Boris says they only want "higher standards" than the EU - something we aren't prevented from implementing now. Given I don't believe (with very good reason) a word that emanates from his mouth - and given the people who are claiming there is no way any government will lower our standards - I'm wondering how said people will defend the Conservative government if (I say when) it starts to look at how big business can be boosted with lower employment, environmental and H&S regulation? It will happen insidiously and slowly - but I'm completely certain that is what they'll do.