Euro 24

[Tonge moor green jacket]

44 minutes ago, paulhanley said:

My expectations may have been close to that type of level 12 months ago but events since have dampened them, and I'm not just talking about the group games in the tournament. We were very average in the four friendlies in 2024 (Brazil, Belgium, Bosnia, Iceland) and Southgate has got his squad cycle horribly wrong. I don't care whether players are getting in the first team at club level or not. If you are leaving Mount/Rashford/Grealish/Sancho at home and picking folk like Bowen/Gallagher there's summat gone wrong. 

If they shut me up and end up going far in the tournament I'll be as happy as the next bloke. But if they don't I think Southgate has had a good crack at it now and it might be time to move on.

Agree about Sancho, but Mount has hardly played, Rashford off form, and Grealish had his injury problems/lack of games.

I thought JG would still go, but not arsed about the others.

Bowen has been very good for West Ham and I have no qualms about his selection.

I would like to see Tony given a go, but I doubt he'll get on the pitch, baring injuries, which is a shame and unfair to him.

[Johnnyrotten]

3 hours ago, desperado said:

It’s a good question and I’m not sure my answer covers it.

I probably didn’t explain myself earlier very well, or I’ve reflected on what @tomski and @Tonge moor green jacket responded with and amended my view.

I think ultimately it comes down to goals, targets, expectations in comparing my Southgate/Evatt comparative thoughts.

Up until Wembley Evatt still had a very good chance of achieving his goals/targets and my (and other fans) expectations - to get promoted. I believed he would deliver. I thought he and the squad he’d assembled were good enough. 

I know it seems knee-jerk to flip on one game (and I’ve not completely as I’m still in favour of him staying) but that one game amplifies the other previous frailties, which could have been diluted had we gone up.

Southgate has been on a great journey with England. Up until this tournament I believe he’s brought the best out of the squad, the players have enjoyed playing for him, he’s changed/altered tactics accordingly and he’s created a real feel good factor in supporting England again (well with most! 😂), after really bland and disconnected leadership; McLaren, Capello, Hodgson  etc.

But this tournament feels different. Expectation is to win and anything short will be considered a failure. That adds pressure. He doesn’t seem as confident in his players/squad (wanting another Calvin Phillips!) and showing less signs of adapting to the situation.

Of course this could (and I very much hope does) change. Unlike the Evatt situation this can change on 1 game. A couple of impact changes and a 4-0 win on Sunday would all of a sudden have us believing again and opinions change again.

Both have another opportunity to go again and show us they can achieve their goals. Both can and I’m backing them both to do so, but they both need to change/adapt. But I just have a nagging doubt now that they might not.

In both situations, the moment you falter in achieving your goals and meeting fan expectation, the moment fans like me start to lose a bit of faith and ask more questions.

I’m really hoping that both go on to fulfill the faith, support and belief that many fans have invested into them both and this time next year England are European Champions and Bolton are back in the championship. 😃

Good answer.  You've made a lot of valid points, I especially agree with the one about the Oxford result being so pivotal, if we'd won I'd have happily joined in with the plaudits for getting 2 promotions in 4 seasons.  Losing that game doesn't make him crap, but it does dilute how we perceive his 4 years beyond the impact that one (big) game would normally have. 

Re Southgate, I don't follow the games as closely as you do, but I'd disagree that up until this month he's got the best out of the squad. In the last 2 years+ there have been loads of disjointed, underwhelming under performing games littered with his trademark over caution against limited opposition.  Taking into account our opponents, I just don't see how anyone could have realistically failed to at least match his results given the quality of players he can call on.  The Phillips comment as you say was odd, and as you've mentioned previously, how can we not have a left back?!  It all feels a bit amateurish.

[ianofcleveleys]

17 hours ago, bolty58 said:

Methinks you are wrong if we are talking about recent times. Italy used to be bad up to two decades ago but have cleaned up their game significantly.

Mainly Uruguay and the Argies in South America.

I watch a lot of world football. I would place Portugal at the top of the pile for 'simulation', 'cheating' - whatever you want to call it.

My distaste for the Portuguese goes back to 2003 when a pitifully weak refereeing performance allowed Mourinho's Porto to blatantly cheat Celtic out of the UEFA Cup Final. I'd no great affinity for Celtic but I hated the unfairness of it

[Traf]

We're the bookies favourites, purely on weight of money NOT as an indication of our true chance of winning.

Brits gamble more than most in Europe and we do like an optimistic loyalty punt.

[Casino]

45 minutes ago, Traf said:

We're the bookies favourites, purely on weight of money NOT as an indication of our true chance of winning.

Brits gamble more than most in Europe and we do like an optimistic loyalty punt.

20 years on and still needs explaining

 

Question though, do bookies ever say, come on, ill take you on

Pile the money in, i want every bit of the market going and ive got bjgger balls than the rest

Not a promotion, just a genuine confidence the punters are wrong

 

As well, even though these tories are cunts, its actually funny to see the wailing cos they knew something the bookies didnt

That is of course if the bookies didnt know.

Sunak prob told em for a fat backhander!

[Lt. Aldo Raine]

I think they tend to be too accountable to their shareholders to do anything like that now

It's big business; risk to be mitigated to the maximum extent

[Traf]

Yeah, there are no real bookmakers anymore. At the racetracks, they're basically following a betfair-type screen behind the stand.

[bolty58]

3 hours ago, Traf said:

Yeah, there are no real bookmakers anymore. At the racetracks, they're basically following a betfair-type screen behind the stand.

Spot on. When I first arrived in Oz in 1988, regularly visited Randwick, Rosehill, Canterbury and Warwick Farm in Sydney. I watched the bookies for a while. They would wait until the Tote odds came up and then frame their market around that. There were two or three characters amongst the bookies standing who loved the banter with the crowd. I used to seek out the bloke they called 'the gun' - P W Todd (Peter). A proper bookmaker with balls who, besides the banter, had an opinion and was miles more 'adventurous' with his market. Gave me the opportunity one day to shout out to a bookie close by him "You're not a bookie, you're a fucking commission agent". Amidst all the banter flying around, got a big laugh from the crowd - suspect not for the remark but the Bolton accent!

Saw Peter Todd arrive at Kembla Grange one day with a few mates. They were obviously there on a job. Followed at a distance until they eventually dived in on a 33-1 debutante which came home like a missile and missed by a millimetre. Followed their lead but the best odds had gone. A few months later he was finished but all the 'Tote followers' were still going strong.

There's a moral to this story somewhere.

[deeane Koontz]

Saka looks like he's been Artetafied.

Similar to what Pep did to Grealish

[Tonge moor green jacket]

11 hours ago, Traf said:

We're the bookies favourites, purely on weight of money NOT as an indication of our true chance of winning.

Brits gamble more than most in Europe and we do like an optimistic loyalty punt.

They must create an initial set of odds though, before bets come in or when someone asks to place one. 

[desperado]

12 hours ago, Johnnyrotten said:

Good answer.  You've made a lot of valid points, I especially agree with the one about the Oxford result being so pivotal, if we'd won I'd have happily joined in with the plaudits for getting 2 promotions in 4 seasons.  Losing that game doesn't make him crap, but it does dilute how we perceive his 4 years beyond the impact that one (big) game would normally have. 

Re Southgate, I don't follow the games as closely as you do, but I'd disagree that up until this month he's got the best out of the squad. In the last 2 years+ there have been loads of disjointed, underwhelming under performing games littered with his trademark over caution against limited opposition.  Taking into account our opponents, I just don't see how anyone could have realistically failed to at least match his results given the quality of players he can call on.  The Phillips comment as you say was odd, and as you've mentioned previously, how can we not have a left back?!  It all feels a bit amateurish.

Some more words which align with my view that explains why it’s just now I’ve started to doubt Southgate:

Pierre-Etienne Minonzio, French journalist for L'Equipe who covers England at major tournaments, says Southgate has "lost his golden touch"

This is the first time I don't really understand Gareth. I was a huge supporter and sometimes as a joke at L'Equipe they told me I was obsessed with him - I always defended him and thought in the past some English people were unfair with him.

But for the first tournament I don't really understand some of his decisions - for example, for me, it is obvious that Foden is not good when he plays on the left. They tried to switch sometimes with Bellingham, but that was not working.

It makes me think a bit about Sven-Goran Eriksson in 2004, when he wanted to play with all his best players in midfield - Lampard, Gerrard, Scholes and Beckham.

I was quite surprised Southgate accepted that fans threw cups at him, he gives the impression he accepts everyone criticising him, takes the burden, 'it is my job...' - I am not sure that is a good attitude, because you expect the England manager to defend himself a bit more. He seems a bit passive.

I didn't understand why he made reference to Kalvin Phillips, because he was not good at all these past few months? For the first time in his communication, which was one of the things he was so good at, and in his choices, I don't really understand Southgate.

Before the tournament, in L'Equipe, we said England were among the big favourites, but now we would say Spain or Germany.

We cannot see in the short term what could make it better. You have to put Cole Palmer in the starting XI, maybe throw out Foden, but is Southgate ready to make such huge decisions?

We'll see. If he does maybe we'll consider him differently, but at the moment England are considered disappointing at this tournament.

[Wanderlust]

This amused me:

 

 

Edited June 28, 2024 by Wanderlust

[Traf]

1 hour ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

They must create an initial set of odds though, before bets come in or when someone asks to place one. 

They do, but it's an artificial book, based on what they already know about betting habits.

England should never be the favourites for a major tournament in a fair market. The problem is that England should have been behind France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc and probably at double digit odds. Sadly that would cause more people to pile in and the bookies just couldn't risk us winning.

[Rizlar]

6 minutes ago, Traf said:

They do, but it's an artificial book, based on what they already know about betting habits.

England should never be the favourites for a major tournament in a fair market. The problem is that England should have been behind France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc and probably at double digit odds. Sadly that would cause more people to pile in and the bookies just couldn't risk us winning.

Spot on bookies are not stupid no way would they have us as long shots just in case we did win it .

[athywhite1958]

I'm no snowflake and believe that players should be allowed a bit of freedom when away, but fucks sake, batting about at speed on an e scooter and coming off could have resulted in far worse injuries, than he actually got, irresponsible fucker (Anthony Gordon) 

[Zico]

Mainoo to start next game apparently (good)

[deeane Koontz]

Could really do with some proper movement up top rather than Harry Biden

[L/H White]

1 hour ago, Zico said:

Mainoo to start next game apparently (good)

Yeah he's the only change 

Crackers that someone is leaking the team from within 

[Farrelli]

6 hours ago, deeane Koontz said:

Saka looks like he's been Artetafied.

Similar to what Pep did to Grealish

I don’t think Saka is 100% fit. He is a shadow of the player from qualifying rounds. 

[Traf]

3 hours ago, L/H White said:

Yeah he's the only change 

Crackers that someone is leaking the team from within 

So Mainoo in for Trent/Gallagher and the other same 10 start again?

[L/H White]

1 minute ago, Traf said:

So Mainoo in for Trent/Gallagher and the other same 10 start again?

Yep

[Tonge moor green jacket]

6 hours ago, Traf said:

They do, but it's an artificial book, based on what they already know about betting habits.

England should never be the favourites for a major tournament in a fair market. The problem is that England should have been behind France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc and probably at double digit odds. Sadly that would cause more people to pile in and the bookies just couldn't risk us winning.

Makes sense.

Why should England have been so far down the list though?

Is it purely because they continually fail to win anything?

[deeane Koontz]

1 hour ago, Farrelli said:

I don’t think Saka is 100% fit. He is a shadow of the player from qualifying rounds. 

He did look fucked towards the end of the season

[Traf]

37 minutes ago, Tonge moor green jacket said:

Makes sense.

Why should England have been so far down the list though?

Is it purely because they continually fail to win anything?

Why do I think we should have been behind those countries?

Because I think when push comes to shove, they're better than we are.

[tomski]

Just start Cole Palmer please.